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Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

isdotnetopen.com

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Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#421

Post by BiteCode_dev »

jodrellblank wrote: post #407
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. And even very intelligent, competent AND benevolent MS employees downplay this: https://twitter.com/bitecode_dev/status/1537357261554733056 Steve cannot see how it will lead to attrition or vendor lock in. It's not that there are no good people at MS, but the internal marketting is strong as well.

Unhappy that you can't have his work for free, you asked /him/ to hand you an equivalent on a plate. He said no. What's he downplaying?

I noticed vendor lock in. He answered "we only lock the easy bits", which is already a weird idea. Like saying we are only not transparent on the small spending on our IRS declaration.

I then question the easy part by asking, tongue in chick, to tell me how I can do the same with FOSS easily. It's freedom I am talking about, not price. Indeed, the proprietary work in question is available without payment already.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#422

Post by BiteCode_dev »

Spivak wrote: post #378
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. And even very intelligent, competent AND benevolent MS employees downplay this: https://twitter.com/bitecode_dev/status/1537357261554733056 Steve cannot see how it will lead to attrition or vendor lock in. It's not that there are no good people at MS, but the internal marketting is strong as well.

I'm having a hard time finding the flaw with this logic, I use pyright but not pylance every day in Neovim and am not locked in at all. Making "the LSP sever that leverages pyright" closed source sucks but is far from the end of the world. If the complaint is that pyright could eventually become non-OSS well that's true of everything.

It's about the VSCode ecosystems becoming more and more close source to accomodate the dev env as a service strat while using the FOSS root of vscode for PR that deserved to be underlined.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#423

Post by cokeandpepsi »

exyi wrote: post #58
oaiey wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The web page is FUD, but the GitHub issue is describing yet another top level management decision which is totally not helpful source code wise and reputation wise. Creating a bridging host component for tools with multiple intellisense or debugging providers is okay, but the host must be open source to control what is happening. This is a strategic move to unify VS and VS Code ... And the open source debacle is the…

If they want to unify and not just have more control over the ecosystem, why not unify them over OmniSharp or other open LSP?

probably because the plan is to mix it with their ML code generating tools

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#424

Post by andresalarcong »

oaiey wrote: post #362
andresalarcong wrote: post #336

C++ could be an option? technical design and roadmap managed by foundation, and there are good tool ecosystems for this language, what do you think? You know if I choose Golang, Java, Kotlin, DotNet will be probably that this history repeating.

C++ is doing that a bit too much.

Rust instead

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#425

Post by wutwutwutwut »

unclad5968 wrote: post #418
bob1029 wrote: post #250

.NET is the most open, non-trivial ecosystem I have ever participated in. I experienced 2 different problems with .NET (back in 2.x/3.x days), and was able to have interaction with the actual MS developers on their Github issue page without any sort of bullshit overhead process. Within days, I saw traction on my comments and within months I saw PRs that ultimately resolved the issue I presented. The following year, I…

I'm pretty confused how anyone can be around for the "dotnet watch" debacle and come out the other side thinking "this is the most open project I've ever participated in"

Haha. I would guess that >95% of NET developers have no idea what you are even talking about.

This really seems like the recurring bubble where posters on HN somehow things that a large majority of the industry is hitting F5 on HN while they are instead busy doing actual work.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#426

Post by b3morales »

BoardsOfCanada wrote: post #152
makeitdouble wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Public companies are inherently evil by default The extremism of this positon makes it hard to swallow the message. You might as well be right, but accepting it at face value would be a huge cognitive dissonance for many people working in public companies. Basically, the “are we the baddies ?” answer would be “yes” for a huge chunk of us, and I don’t think that’s how we see it personally. Companies have to make mon…

Obviously it's so simplistic it's dangerous. Try to reason the same way about humans, "the only responsibility is to pass on our genes and therefore there can be no altruism". Right? Wrong.

I agree with you, but the obvious retort is that altruism is "just" one possible medium-to-long term emergent strategy whose purpose is to ensure the survival of your genetic material. :)

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#427

Post by [deleted] »

phendrenad2 wrote: post #120
foepys wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A problem of the .NET ecosystem is that there is no open source debugger for C#. The Microsoft-provided debugger has strict license terms that only allow it to be used in Visual Studio and Visual Studio Code. JetBrains needed to write their own debugger for their cross-platform IDE Rider. Luckily they already knew a lot about .NET to do this and it turned out very well but it's still not the official debugger and als…

How does the lack of an open-source debugger (which is wrong by the way, there are several projects on github), invalidate the fact that .NET is open-source?

[deleted]

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#428

Post by giaour »

tinco wrote: post #384
Pathogen-David wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can do this in the .NET ecosystem too, they accept pull requests from the community regularly. I have a few merged PRs in Roslyn, one in particular I made because I knew it didn't affect very many developers and would have trouble getting prioritized. Also personally the ideal situation for me is for someone who is getting paid to fix the issue to go fix it without me having to get my hands dirty.

Bonus points if you're either not asked to transfer your copyright, or asked to transfer it to a non-profit foundation. Personally, I'm ok with doing the work myself if I didn't pay for the product. It gives me a feeling we're all working together on a better software ecosystem, because Turing knows we need it to be better sometimes. edit: sorry for moving the goal posts, it's definitely cool that you got MR's into R…

I work on an open-source project for Microsoft, and I review and merge community PRs all the time. Nobody pays for the product I work on (or for C# or TypeScript, for that matter).

The Contributor License Agreement used on all MSFT open source projects doesn't ask you to transfer your copyright, though it does require submitters to agree to grant a permissive copyright and patent license. IANAL, but the copyright and patent clauses in Microsoft's CLA[0] do not look substantially different from the equivalent clauses in the Apache 2.0 license[1].

[0]: https://opensource.microsoft.com/pdf/microsoft-contribution-...

[1]: https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/blob/master/LICENSE-APACHE...

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#429

Post by giobox »

babypuncher wrote: post #357
cerved wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

being open is not about not paying but using it however you like, not constrained to VisualGarbage XYZ or Windows 15-xtra ultra edition

Say what you want, but Visual Studio 2022 is one of the best IDE I've used, way better than Eclipse. And You're not stuck on it either, JetBrains Rider is a 100% viable alternative and often preferred by many .NET developers. Windows is also not a requirement unless you are using old Windows-specific frameworks like WPF. ASP.NET, EFCore, IdentityServer, and everything else you need to build a web app works equally on…

While I like Visual Studio, comparing to Eclipse is a little unfair. Exactly like DotNet today, you can use any IDE you like, InteliJ will compare extremely favorably to Visual Studio if we want to pick a good Java IDE to compare.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#430

Post by makeitdouble »

rglullis wrote: post #188
actionfromafar wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny, I don't see any good from IKEA when you look at the greater picture. More waste, un-accounted for externalities all over the board (labour laws, environment exploitation), extremely well-honed organisation designed to evade taxes through "charities".

You can add their influences in normalizing mass production and mass consumerism , "fast decor", the complete blandness of what they sell and how it contributes to globalization and the destruction of diverse aesthetic values...

I am sympathetic to your point, but think that ship has sailed. It might come back, but not in the same form.

I say that as a sample of the population who deeply wants the bland, blank slate aesthetic in reaction to the rococo and non-modular furniture I had to deal with in other people’s home and surroundings.

Paradoxally, I am sure it will come back as a reaction to people like me, and next gnerations might want to get back to their roots and resurface diverse and culturally more anchored styles. When it does, I hope they’ll have small production tools (home grade cnc mills ?) to do so in small batches at low cost, and get crazy with the stuff they make.

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