Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform • Hacker News Board

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#371

Post by _-david-_ » Thu, Jun 16, 2022, 3:55 PM UTC

Taywee wrote: post #350

_-david-_ wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>fix the system so that even normal, fallible humans can be at helm and not having everyone else worried about potential abuses? I assume normal and fallible humans are the ones who are going to setup this new system that will prevent abuse?

I don't see why not. Normal humans make mistakes, can't manually manage memory safely, are bad at building safe buildings without experience and standards and guidelines, and naturally fall into unsafe food preparation habits. Still, we have set up memory safe practices and languages and standards, building standards and regulations, and food safety regulations that work quite well. Just because humans make mistakes…

I'm not suggesting we shouldn't have rules and laws and whatnot. It sounded like the person I was responding to thought it would be a silver bullet. I was trying to push back saying it wouldn't be perfect. We can improve things, but since the rule makers are also fallible there will always be loopholes and other issues.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#372

Post by robertlagrant » Thu, Jun 16, 2022, 3:55 PM UTC

csmpltn wrote: post #369

tinco wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are unaware of how much better it is with the other ecosystems. Probably all of them except the ones controlled by Apple, Oracle and IBM. You want to know what's better than having actual MS developers interact with your issue on GH? Being able to submit a MR yourself and actually have that MR be merged in within days of it being good to go. That's not just a dream, that's the standard way of operating for most l…

> "You want to know what's better than having actual MS developers interact with your issue on GH? Being able to submit a MR yourself and actually have that MR be merged in within days of it being good to go." .NET isn't your average hobby project - it's used everywhere. It's imperative that changes go through the proper due process here. It takes time to prepare design documents and review them, discuss the changes…

It's not used everywhere, or not to a significant degree different to how Ruby is, which was in the example of the post you were replying to. And this isn't about haste, it's about openness. Code that is well written and passes tests can be reviewed and merged in hours, let alone days, without being considered hastily included.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#373

Post by Etheryte » Thu, Jun 16, 2022, 3:58 PM UTC

csmpltn wrote: post #369

tinco wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are unaware of how much better it is with the other ecosystems. Probably all of them except the ones controlled by Apple, Oracle and IBM. You want to know what's better than having actual MS developers interact with your issue on GH? Being able to submit a MR yourself and actually have that MR be merged in within days of it being good to go. That's not just a dream, that's the standard way of operating for most l…

> "You want to know what's better than having actual MS developers interact with your issue on GH? Being able to submit a MR yourself and actually have that MR be merged in within days of it being good to go." .NET isn't your average hobby project - it's used everywhere. It's imperative that changes go through the proper due process here. It takes time to prepare design documents and review them, discuss the changes…

This is an absurd straw-man. Nowhere did the parent comment say anything of the kind you're arguing against. In fact, they highlighted that you should the follow the procedures and rules. This is silly.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#374

Post by _-david-_ » Thu, Jun 16, 2022, 3:58 PM UTC

rglullis wrote: post #361

_-david-_ wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If normal people (shareholders, c levels, etc) are going to engage in bad behavior then why do you think other normal people (lawmakers) are not? If lawmakers are going to be rewarded from bad behavior then we can't fix the rules / laws. I'm not suggesting we shouldn't try, but it isn't really silver bullet.

This is why I said about institutions. Lawmakers are (or should be) subject to public scrutiny. An employee from a corporation benefits from a corporation that abuses their power. Ordinary citizens that vote for a corrupt politician do not, and have no invested interest in them.

I agree, but until something comes to light abuses could still be happening. I was mostly pushing back on the idea that a system can be created that would allow the average person to not pay attention. I think individuals must be vigilant even if we think we have a good system.

I probably wasn't as clear as I should have been.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#375

Post by Pathogen-David » Thu, Jun 16, 2022, 3:59 PM UTC

tinco wrote: post #355

bob1029 wrote: post #250

.NET is the most open, non-trivial ecosystem I have ever participated in. I experienced 2 different problems with .NET (back in 2.x/3.x days), and was able to have interaction with the actual MS developers on their Github issue page without any sort of bullshit overhead process. Within days, I saw traction on my comments and within months I saw PRs that ultimately resolved the issue I presented. The following year, I…

You are unaware of how much better it is with the other ecosystems. Probably all of them except the ones controlled by Apple, Oracle and IBM. You want to know what's better than having actual MS developers interact with your issue on GH? Being able to submit a MR yourself and actually have that MR be merged in within days of it being good to go. That's not just a dream, that's the standard way of operating for most l…

You can do this in the .NET ecosystem too, they accept pull requests from the community regularly. I have a few merged PRs in Roslyn, one in particular I made because I knew it didn't affect very many developers and would have trouble getting prioritized.

Also personally the ideal situation for me is for someone who is getting paid to fix the issue to go fix it without me having to get my hands dirty.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#376

Post by actionfromafar » Thu, Jun 16, 2022, 3:59 PM UTC

com2kid wrote: post #343

actionfromafar wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The effects of IKEA must be very different depending on where in the world they were introduced, and when. If your country (cough-cough USA) had already descended into the "crap products globalisation stage" before IKEA came along, it will feel like a net positive. If your country (cough-cough Sweden) got IKEA before that stage, I would say, yes, IKEA displaced quality furniture. I'd say the overall problem is un-acc…

Ikea also sells nice, solid wood, furniture. And they typically do so at a price that is much more affordable than their competitors. If you want to go into Ikea and just buy long lasting solid wood products, go ahead! Indeed I'd argue Ikea has made new solid wood furniture more accessible, heck sometimes new Ikea wood furniture is cheaper than consignment store wood furniture!

I see. Then it's OK to skirt environmental and worker protection laws, I guess. As long as the products are nice.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#377

Post by tresqotheq » Thu, Jun 16, 2022, 3:59 PM UTC

blagie wrote: post #156

kelnos wrote: post #37

This sort of thing has been MS's playbook since I was a kid, or earlier. It surprises me that people are still surprised when things like this happen. I especially think someone with Miguel de Icaza's experience should know better[0]. It's interesting to see the generational difference here. Many of my somewhat-younger (even only by 7-10 years) programmer/techie friends just don't remember the Microsoft of the 80s an…

Companies aren't people. The set of people in Microsoft is completely different in 2022 than it was in 1995. A quarter-century has passed. It's not the same organization as it was back then. It has very little relationship to it. I've been consistently surprised by Microsoft doing non-evil things over the past decade, until I accepted that I no longer had reason to hate it. Conversely, for a while, I was surprised by…

>Swap out the people and incentives, and it's a new thing under an old name.

And according to you, the incentives of this new Microsoft are...?

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#378

Post by Spivak » Thu, Jun 16, 2022, 4:03 PM UTC

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #309

rtpg wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The LSP situation with Python was very frustrating, because it totally breathes the oxygen out of "proper" OSS implementations. I feel like with a _loooot_ of coordination it should be possible to have proper, open source LSP implementations that are very performant. Mainly a question of finding enough people willing to fund this work, because it's definitely work! I personally also have gripes about ending up with s…

Indeed. And even very intelligent, competent AND benevolent MS employees downplay this: https://twitter.com/bitecode_dev/status/1537357261554733056 Steve cannot see how it will lead to attrition or vendor lock in. It's not that there are no good people at MS, but the internal marketting is strong as well.

I'm having a hard time finding the flaw with this logic, I use pyright but not pylance every day in Neovim and am not locked in at all.

Making "the LSP sever that leverages pyright" closed source sucks but is far from the end of the world. If the complaint is that pyright could eventually become non-OSS well that's true of everything.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#379

Post by WalterGR » Thu, Jun 16, 2022, 4:07 PM UTC

exyi wrote: post #195

tempodox wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they will offer a closed-source sibling product.

And most likely deprecate support for the open Language server, as they did with Pylance/Jedi...

What do you mean by "deprecate support"? Do you mean stop developing a project that's open source / free software?

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#380

Post by tinco » Thu, Jun 16, 2022, 4:08 PM UTC

csmpltn wrote: post #369

tinco wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are unaware of how much better it is with the other ecosystems. Probably all of them except the ones controlled by Apple, Oracle and IBM. You want to know what's better than having actual MS developers interact with your issue on GH? Being able to submit a MR yourself and actually have that MR be merged in within days of it being good to go. That's not just a dream, that's the standard way of operating for most l…

> "You want to know what's better than having actual MS developers interact with your issue on GH? Being able to submit a MR yourself and actually have that MR be merged in within days of it being good to go." .NET isn't your average hobby project - it's used everywhere. It's imperative that changes go through the proper due process here. It takes time to prepare design documents and review them, discuss the changes…

I'd be very surprised if Microsoft's development process is more thorough than that of Rust or even Rails. These are not your average hobby projects, it is imperative that changes go through the proper due process there. It takes time to prepare design documents and review them, discuss the changes and different alternatives, review the code, implement the changes, test them properly, and you can participate in all those steps.