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Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

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Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#351

Post by pc86 »

blagie wrote: post #209
elviejo wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Second the people selected for a company are selected based on their conformance to that companies culture. So even if not a single human in Microsoft is the same, the company culture is the there. This reminds me of an old story, might be fiction, that conveys the idea. five chimpanzees were put in a cage, bananas in the center everytime one tried to get a banana they would get cold water untill they simply stoped t…

As a point of experience, I know of only a handful of corporations from my childhood which preserved the same culture. The vast majority are entirely different. Most software engineering and executives jobs have a tenure of three years, and I think culture is definitely preserved for longer than that. However, it's very rarely preserved over decades. You're citing a classic joke. The experiment doesn't replicate when…

As a child you were familiar with the internal company culture of multiple corporations?

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#352

Post by wilsonnb3 »

exyi wrote: post #89
foepys wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a libre version of VS Code but it is missing features like access to the official extension marketplace. https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium

It works reasonably well though, most extensions are in the libre open-vsx.org gallery. Only problem for me is the missing .NET debugger...

there is a C# extension that uses the open source Samsung debugger

https://open-vsx.org/extension/muhammad-sammy/csharp

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#353

Post by _-david-_ »

rglullis wrote: post #347
_-david-_ wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>fix the system so that even normal, fallible humans can be at helm and not having everyone else worried about potential abuses? I assume normal and fallible humans are the ones who are going to setup this new system that will prevent abuse?

Yes, so? Isn't that the exact purpose of institutions?

If normal people (shareholders, c levels, etc) are going to engage in bad behavior then why do you think other normal people (lawmakers) are not? If lawmakers are going to be rewarded from bad behavior then we can't fix the rules / laws.

I'm not suggesting we shouldn't try, but it isn't really silver bullet.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#354

Post by UmbertoNoEco »

spaetzleesser wrote: post #276
Jemm wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporations are sociopaths by their very design. Their number one mandate is to make money for their shareholders and to grow. This colours every decision they make.

It doesn't have to be like that. The focus on shareholders started sometime in the 80s.

Not only that. More often than not "focusing on shareholders" just means, let's do the most sociopathic thing which will pump up the stock price in the short term, increase those year-end bonuses and allow the executives to move up within or outside. Long term consequences for the shareholders are not considered, you could just imagine what weight long-term consequences for society will have on their decisions.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#355

Post by tinco »

bob1029 wrote: post #250

.NET is the most open, non-trivial ecosystem I have ever participated in. I experienced 2 different problems with .NET (back in 2.x/3.x days), and was able to have interaction with the actual MS developers on their Github issue page without any sort of bullshit overhead process. Within days, I saw traction on my comments and within months I saw PRs that ultimately resolved the issue I presented. The following year, I…

You are unaware of how much better it is with the other ecosystems. Probably all of them except the ones controlled by Apple, Oracle and IBM.

You want to know what's better than having actual MS developers interact with your issue on GH? Being able to submit a MR yourself and actually have that MR be merged in within days of it being good to go.

That's not just a dream, that's the standard way of operating for most large open source ecosystems. If you solve a known issue with a clear well considered merge request, and you've gone through all the prescribed steps your MR will get merged.

From personal experience I've landed MR's in the Ruby interpreter, in the Rust compiler and in the Rails framework. All as a complete outsider with no prior introductions to the team. Just be polite, follow the rules, solve something that's real with no architectural impact and it'll get merged (just mentioning these because they're ecosystems, I've had MR's merged in for dozens of smaller projects in the same manner).

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#356

Post by pronik »

thejosh wrote: post #22
chenzhekl wrote: post #15

This is exactly the same as what MS did for the Python extension when the open-source LSP was replaced by the proprietary Pylance. I get the feeling that MS becomes more and more likes Google. For example, on Android, the core experience is provided by GMS while the AOSP is provided as an open-source core. In terms of VSCode, the core editor is free and open-source, but some key experience is baked by proprietary com…

Yep, they saw no real backlash to doing this for the Python one, then decided to do it here as well.

Because most people continued to use VSCode and didn't notice. Other LSP users' communities noticed, but were too small to make a vocal impact.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#357

Post by babypuncher »

cerved wrote: post #271
bob1029 wrote: post #250

.NET is the most open, non-trivial ecosystem I have ever participated in. I experienced 2 different problems with .NET (back in 2.x/3.x days), and was able to have interaction with the actual MS developers on their Github issue page without any sort of bullshit overhead process. Within days, I saw traction on my comments and within months I saw PRs that ultimately resolved the issue I presented. The following year, I…

being open is not about not paying but using it however you like, not constrained to VisualGarbage XYZ or Windows 15-xtra ultra edition

Say what you want, but Visual Studio 2022 is one of the best IDE I've used, way better than Eclipse. And You're not stuck on it either, JetBrains Rider is a 100% viable alternative and often preferred by many .NET developers.

Windows is also not a requirement unless you are using old Windows-specific frameworks like WPF. ASP.NET, EFCore, IdentityServer, and everything else you need to build a web app works equally on Windows, Linux, and macOS.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#358

Post by oaiey »

meragrin_ wrote: post #258
oleksandr_kot wrote: post #17

I've been using Omnisharp-VsCode extension for years on my daily job. It's far from ideal, especially the initial setup experience. I think here's what's going on: It appears VS Code is Microsoft's main IDE and C# is the main language. Not surprised they decided to obtain more control over the integration to improve the experience. In terms of management, it's always easier to cut all the external dependencies (commu…

I think VS Code was supposed to be a "gateway drug" to VS. It's not turning out that way. If they can't get the users to go full VS, they probably have an idea they can sell some of the backend stuff, but they can't right now since there is not a way to plug it in. OmniSharp is probably going to remain the default, but MS is betting a number of people will pony up for better(their) backends.

I believe it is more nuanced. They needed a web based technology for the future. And VS itself is a technology monster. Also LSPs took over.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#360

Post by oaiey »

throw7 wrote: post #308

I mean Miguel de Icaza chose the bed he lies in. I knew this from day one of ".NET" and I'm sure Miguel knew it too.

He literally built his own bed and then choses to sell the bed in the hope the other bed would be like his own. Now he warns about the attached closet is the problem
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