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Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

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Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#341

Post by andresalarcong »

c++ could be an good option to move? i mean, if i choose golang, dotnet, java, kotlin all that options is managed by companies that found their own economics benefits. at the expense of open source, of democracy, of innovation, it has already been observed that this transcends to political issues, case of vetoing countries in conflict, cases like huawei with android, case of goland, case of java and now dotnet.

can we then choose cpp as our development philosophy ? I observe clang, llmv, and the language design by iso standard

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#342

Post by svick »

orra wrote: post #262
yread wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you can use lldb that's open source

Are you sure about that? LLDB is primarily a native code debugger. For .NET you want to debug "managed" stack frames and variables.

Yes, you can debug .Net using LLDB if you use the open-source SOS extension: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/diagnostics/sos....

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#343

Post by com2kid »

actionfromafar wrote: post #324
makeitdouble wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IKEA in a vacuum has many many flaws. As I see it though, what IKEA displaced wasn’t the family owned expert artisans manufacturing built to order furnitures. It was piss poor, badly designed, actual shitty materials, poor country labor intensive flat packs. When I was a kid my family bought cheap mass produced furniture from shopping malls, the looks were fine, it came from Vietnam or China [0], and the quality was…

The effects of IKEA must be very different depending on where in the world they were introduced, and when. If your country (cough-cough USA) had already descended into the "crap products globalisation stage" before IKEA came along, it will feel like a net positive. If your country (cough-cough Sweden) got IKEA before that stage, I would say, yes, IKEA displaced quality furniture. I'd say the overall problem is un-acc…

Ikea also sells nice, solid wood, furniture. And they typically do so at a price that is much more affordable than their competitors.

If you want to go into Ikea and just buy long lasting solid wood products, go ahead! Indeed I'd argue Ikea has made new solid wood furniture more accessible, heck sometimes new Ikea wood furniture is cheaper than consignment store wood furniture!

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#344

Post by triceratops »

someotherperson wrote: post #71
kelnos wrote: post #37

This sort of thing has been MS's playbook since I was a kid, or earlier. It surprises me that people are still surprised when things like this happen. I especially think someone with Miguel de Icaza's experience should know better[0]. It's interesting to see the generational difference here. Many of my somewhat-younger (even only by 7-10 years) programmer/techie friends just don't remember the Microsoft of the 80s an…

Opinions like this have always been weird to me. Not wrong, but weird. Any contribution that M$ (remember when people would sub the S for a dollar sign?) makes to open source or open standards is to support their own bottom line and we shouldn't expect anything else. The directors have a legal responsibility to the company and to boost the share price, not for the betterment of humanity. To this effect, companies wil…

> The directors have a legal responsibility to the company

Yes

> and to boost the share price

Not exactly. They have a fiduciary responsibility to shareholders and must always act in their best interests. But the law allows a great degree of freedom in interpreting that. For example, actions that may depress the share price in the short-term can be argued as being good for the long-term health of the company and the courts are OK with that argument.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#345

Post by nerdix »

oblio wrote: post #222
goodpoint wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2 major GUI toolkits, ... multiple DEs, frequent upgrades to them, also with breaking changes, a full decades of bickering I was using Linux desktops 20 years ago and the same arguments were made. They were FUD and they still are. 1) having "too much" choice is nothing to complain about. 2) if you are a beginner, pick a stable distribution and your desktop will be completely immune to churn. Use it as a productivit…

> They were FUD and they still are. Sorry, but take the horse blinders off. If this kind of criticism coming from a long time user of Linux desktop (not as active nowadays because work is Windows, but most of my work is done in IDEs, browsers and through Cygwin anyway), FOSS supporter, etc is FUD, then boy, are you going to have a hard time fighting Microsoft's or Apple's marketing teams. > 3) if you are not a beginn…

> Most people aren't able to "maintain a desktop".

He offered the solution though. If you are not able to "maintain a desktop" (either because you don't know how to, just don't want to, or don't have the time to, etc) then use a stable distro and accept the choices that were made for you. Thats not much different than just installing Windows or buying a Mac and accepting whatever decisions Microsoft/Apple made regarding how the desktop experience should be.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#346

Post by draw_down »

ThinkBeat wrote: post #66

Is this not pretty close to: "core open source" model that a lot of the open source projects featured on HN has adopted? They give you access to a lot of things for free, and then they offer proprietary solutions on top of that. and if they follow the pattern maybe they will start charging or some proprietary features.

No post body was provided.

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#347

Post by rglullis »

_-david-_ wrote: post #326
rglullis wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's like the story of the scorpion and the frog. If you know that the system is broken and it is setup in a way that rewards bad behavior, what do you think is the best course of action: to expect that exceptional individuals will be always in charge to avoid the mistakes, or to fix the system so that even normal , fallible humans can be at helm and not having everyone else worried about potential abuses?

>fix the system so that even normal, fallible humans can be at helm and not having everyone else worried about potential abuses? I assume normal and fallible humans are the ones who are going to setup this new system that will prevent abuse?

Yes, so? Isn't that the exact purpose of institutions?

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#348

Post by [deleted] »

kelnos wrote: post #37

This sort of thing has been MS's playbook since I was a kid, or earlier. It surprises me that people are still surprised when things like this happen. I especially think someone with Miguel de Icaza's experience should know better[0]. It's interesting to see the generational difference here. Many of my somewhat-younger (even only by 7-10 years) programmer/techie friends just don't remember the Microsoft of the 80s an…

[deleted]

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#349

Post by wilsonnb3 »

Georgelemental wrote: post #233
foepys wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A problem of the .NET ecosystem is that there is no open source debugger for C#. The Microsoft-provided debugger has strict license terms that only allow it to be used in Visual Studio and Visual Studio Code. JetBrains needed to write their own debugger for their cross-platform IDE Rider. Luckily they already knew a lot about .NET to do this and it turned out very well but it's still not the official debugger and als…

https://github.com/Samsung/netcoredbg

and there is a VSCode extension that uses this instead of the MS debugger

https://open-vsx.org/extension/muhammad-sammy/csharp

Re: Despite best efforts .NET is still not an open platform

#350

Post by Taywee »

_-david-_ wrote: post #326
rglullis wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's like the story of the scorpion and the frog. If you know that the system is broken and it is setup in a way that rewards bad behavior, what do you think is the best course of action: to expect that exceptional individuals will be always in charge to avoid the mistakes, or to fix the system so that even normal , fallible humans can be at helm and not having everyone else worried about potential abuses?

>fix the system so that even normal, fallible humans can be at helm and not having everyone else worried about potential abuses? I assume normal and fallible humans are the ones who are going to setup this new system that will prevent abuse?

I don't see why not. Normal humans make mistakes, can't manually manage memory safely, are bad at building safe buildings without experience and standards and guidelines, and naturally fall into unsafe food preparation habits.

Still, we have set up memory safe practices and languages and standards, building standards and regulations, and food safety regulations that work quite well. Just because humans make mistakes and are fallible doesn't mean that humans are incapable of working to prevent mistakes and the consequences of human fallibility.

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