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Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

theguardian.com

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Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#121

Post by sky-kedge0749 »

prometheus76 wrote: post #116
sweetheart wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Veganism explicitly makes room for people who are in situations where eating animal products is required to survive. I even explicitly mentioned that several times in what I wrote: when it’s not necessary, it’s wrong. There is no moral obligation in a situation with a lack of choice. However, the VAST majority of people are not in situations where animal products must be eaten to survive. But are you in that situatio…

I'm an Orthodox Christian, so I do not eat animal products (no meat, no dairy, no eggs, no olive oil, and no wine, to be specific) during our fasting periods throughout the liturgical year. Those fasting periods add up to more than six months out of the year. On non-fasting days I eat things from the list above to renew my strength and because I am just as prone to sins of the right-hand (being too strict) as I am pr…

I'm vegetarian and not vegan partly because the full purity and ingredient checking and all that is not good for my mental health. So maybe I understand where you are coming from, sort of, in a secular way.

That said I think it's important to remember that eating meat is not about you or me, it's about the animals we are (not) eating. The animal doesn't care about our reasons. If you imprisoned a cat and some days you tortured it and some days you left it alone, the cat would not care why. It could not even understand why and causing it pain for one's own spiritual growth seems, respectfully, prideful to me. There is no ethical middle path between sometimes torturing a cat and sometimes not. Probably if you told your priest about an imprisoned cat you were sometimes torturing he would tell you to release it immediately.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#122

Post by [deleted] »

kinghtown wrote: post #24
cpsns wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find myself shocked by how little regard people have for the intelligence of other animals. If people readily accepted the intelligence of many mammals, much less other animals, they would have to confront some very serious cognitive dissonance and moral dilemmas. That said, I've found many dog folks are super dismissive of the idea of cats being smart and I'm not sure why that is. Perhaps part of the problem is…

I feel like most people are like one or two a-ha insights away from veganism. Intelligence and awareness definitely has a spectrum across the animal kingdom but I’m not so sure about sentience itself. Do fish feel pain? Do insects experience fear? It is very difficult to to empathize with a spider or imagine that a scorpion could feel contentment, but as we we climb up the kingdom to vertebrates and especially mammal…

[deleted]

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#123

Post by kinghtown »

guerrilla wrote: post #78
kinghtown wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like most people are like one or two a-ha insights away from veganism. Intelligence and awareness definitely has a spectrum across the animal kingdom but I’m not so sure about sentience itself. Do fish feel pain? Do insects experience fear? It is very difficult to to empathize with a spider or imagine that a scorpion could feel contentment, but as we we climb up the kingdom to vertebrates and especially mammal…

> I feel like most people are like one or two a-ha insights away from veganism. Intelligence and awareness definitely has a spectrum across the animal kingdom but I’m not so sure about sentience itself. Do fish feel pain? Do insects experience fear? The only people who don't think animals feel pain are people who don't spend time with animals. Every farmer since the neolithic has known that animals feel pain and are…

No post body was provided.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#124

Post by prometheus76 »

sky-kedge0749 wrote: post #121
prometheus76 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an Orthodox Christian, so I do not eat animal products (no meat, no dairy, no eggs, no olive oil, and no wine, to be specific) during our fasting periods throughout the liturgical year. Those fasting periods add up to more than six months out of the year. On non-fasting days I eat things from the list above to renew my strength and because I am just as prone to sins of the right-hand (being too strict) as I am pr…

I'm vegetarian and not vegan partly because the full purity and ingredient checking and all that is not good for my mental health. So maybe I understand where you are coming from, sort of, in a secular way. That said I think it's important to remember that eating meat is not about you or me, it's about the animals we are (not) eating. The animal doesn't care about our reasons. If you imprisoned a cat and some days yo…

I trust 2,000 years of accumulated wisdom in my spiritual tradition more than I trust my own judgement. I don't completely disregard my own judgement, but I also recognize that I am easily deceived, I lack discernment, and that I cannot always trust my own motives, nor am I always aware of the consequences of my actions. That's why I have a priest, and why I rely on the traditions of my faith.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#125

Post by sweetheart »

prometheus76 wrote: post #120
sweetheart wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We are called to walk the Royal Path, and for those in the workaday world, that includes eating meat sometimes If I'm interpreting this correctly, you're saying you eat meat for 2 reasons. The first is that not doing so would make you too prideful, and the second is because it's in the "Royal Path", which we are called to. I think the pigs, sheep, chickens, etc. would prefer you feel a little prideful, compared to…

I already answered that question when I said "...which is a spiritual danger worse than what might come about from eating meat", but you are ignoring my answer because you disagree, or because you do not recognize that danger. Pride is the most dangerous of all passions, and is the mother of all the other passions.

Okay so the Royal Path allows it because otherwise we are too prideful and thats really bad. So the pridefulness you'd feel is more important (or meaningful, significant, etc.) than the life of the animal and it's suffering?

It seems unfair to me that sentient animals need to die in your very personal battle with pride. Do you not see that as unfair?

Also, are you prideful when you abstain from eating baboon? Or when you abstain from eating hippopotamus, or giant squid? Why is it that pridefulness comes from abstaining from pig and chicken, but not any other animals you already don't eat?

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#126

Post by prometheus76 »

sweetheart wrote: post #125
prometheus76 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I already answered that question when I said "...which is a spiritual danger worse than what might come about from eating meat", but you are ignoring my answer because you disagree, or because you do not recognize that danger. Pride is the most dangerous of all passions, and is the mother of all the other passions.

Okay so the Royal Path allows it because otherwise we are too prideful and thats really bad. So the pridefulness you'd feel is more important (or meaningful, significant, etc.) than the life of the animal and it's suffering? It seems unfair to me that sentient animals need to die in your very personal battle with pride. Do you not see that as unfair? Also, are you prideful when you abstain from eating baboon? Or when…

I agree it's tragic that in our fallen world, we live by other living things dying. I pray every day for God's mercy on our fallen world, and for his mercy on my weakness.

I don't think this will make sense to you, and I understand why it wouldn't, but I trust the traditions of my faith, and the teachings of the Church Fathers in my tradition, more than I trust my own judgement.

The "higher path" in Orthodoxy is the monastic life, which includes not eating meat, dairy, eggs, (and only rarely eating olive oil and wine), but I am not a monk. And the "lower path" in Orthodoxy is to live in the world and to fast from those things for more days during the year than not. I follow the liturgical calendar, and I follow the teachings of my faith because I trust the accumulated wisdom of my faith more than I trust my own judgement, because I lack discernment and spiritual maturity. May God have mercy on us all. Please forgive me for not having a clearer or more satisfying answer for you.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#127

Post by groby_b »

throwaway675309 wrote: post #26
groby_b wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhuh. They have more neurons. This does say exactly nothing about "smart". There's also the small matter that while dogs have more neurons than cats in general, they have significantly less neurons allocated to their cortex. The study you likely refer to talks about total brain matter. It is, in short, a dog lovers argument.

I don't really have a dog in this fight, no pun intended, but you would be wrong. The only modern study that looked at neurons of carnivorous animals including cats/dogs found that dogs have nearly twice the number of neurons in the cerebral cortex, and the ratio of cortical neurons to overall neurons is also higher (~20% vs ~23%). https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnana.2017.0011...

Ah. Turns out my numbers are based on packing density, while the study you cite is based on counting neurons. (I'm assuming here counting is the better choice :)

The main point remains either way - equating numbers of neurons with "smart" is a really odd definition of "smart". (I mean, most definitions of "smart" in animal studies are bonkers - the most common one is "is obedient")

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#128

Post by HellsMaddy »

prometheus76 wrote: post #110
HellsMaddy wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May I ask, why does the intelligence and sociability of the animal sway your decision, as opposed to the animal’s ability to think and feel? Where is the line that separates eating dog or pork from eating cow or chicken?

I'm not the OP you're asking about, but on a related note: I don't eat dogs because they're omnivores. I try to stick as much as possible to only eating ruminants. But that's a completely separate issue than what you were asking OP about.

Can you explain why you are okay with eating ruminants but not omnivores?

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#129

Post by prometheus76 »

HellsMaddy wrote: post #128
prometheus76 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not the OP you're asking about, but on a related note: I don't eat dogs because they're omnivores. I try to stick as much as possible to only eating ruminants. But that's a completely separate issue than what you were asking OP about.

Can you explain why you are okay with eating ruminants but not omnivores?

Much lower chance of getting parasites.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#130

Post by sky-kedge0749 »

prometheus76 wrote: post #124
sky-kedge0749 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm vegetarian and not vegan partly because the full purity and ingredient checking and all that is not good for my mental health. So maybe I understand where you are coming from, sort of, in a secular way. That said I think it's important to remember that eating meat is not about you or me, it's about the animals we are (not) eating. The animal doesn't care about our reasons. If you imprisoned a cat and some days yo…

I trust 2,000 years of accumulated wisdom in my spiritual tradition more than I trust my own judgement. I don't completely disregard my own judgement, but I also recognize that I am easily deceived, I lack discernment, and that I cannot always trust my own motives, nor am I always aware of the consequences of my actions. That's why I have a priest, and why I rely on the traditions of my faith.

There is plenty of meat available that is almost cruelty-free. A factory farmed broiler chicken lives its entire 60,480 minutes (six weeks) in agony, while a hunted deer or pastured cow might only suffer a few minutes, and for the deer you might be saving it from an even worse fate. Maybe you are already buying meat that way.

I'm sorry that I compared what you feel to be a religious necessity to eat meat to torturing a cat. That was disrespectful. Discussions on eating meat should be less all-or-nothing. For example there is a tremendous amount of food wasted in the U.S., including animal products: https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/22890292/food-waste-meat-.... Reducing food waste is something I think everyone can support.

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