Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans • Hacker News Board

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#111

Post by prometheus76 » Wed, Jun 15, 2022, 2:13 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #84

lynguist wrote: post #83

The difference between modern humans and other animals, even extinct humans, is not the presence of intelligence, it is language. Just compared to other extinct humans, we are more social and more violent. I believe what makes humans different is this: language and music and religion. This makes humans something bigger than just the individual. See: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4947341/#!po=0....

Indeed there are conceptual and communications skills we possess that no animals approach. The problem I find in these debates is that we each have different ideas what terms like intelligence, understanding and consciousness mean. Consciousness is particularly difficult because we use it in so many different ways. If you look in most dictionaries you will see about half a dozen different definitions ranging from mea…

The other very strange aspect of consciousness is that the only way we have of experiencing consciousness is through our own consciousness. The recursive nature of trying to reflect on consciousness while using our consciousness to do so ends up having some very weird effects. The book, I Am A Strange Loop by Douglas Hofstadter is what got me thinking about this problem.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#112

Post by uxcolumbo » Wed, Jun 15, 2022, 2:19 PM UTC

logicchains wrote: post #75

kinghtown wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like most people are like one or two a-ha insights away from veganism. Intelligence and awareness definitely has a spectrum across the animal kingdom but I’m not so sure about sentience itself. Do fish feel pain? Do insects experience fear? It is very difficult to to empathize with a spider or imagine that a scorpion could feel contentment, but as we we climb up the kingdom to vertebrates and especially mammal…

>Cows are very intelligent, have long term memories, and feel desolation when their calves are taken away from them Have you ever met cows in the farm/paddock? Most cows I've come across are huge assholes, like the kind of person that hangs around a bar trying to start fights. In my mind they deserve to be eaten.

Your line of reasoning is not very logical and dare I say it - barbaric. To condemn a sentient being because you deem it being an 'asshole'.

There is a spectrum of characters - even among the animal kingdom - including us humans.

Here is a counter argument: https://love.heavenofanimals.com/2021/11/17/man-demonstrates...

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#113

Post by sky-kedge0749 » Wed, Jun 15, 2022, 2:20 PM UTC

theplumber wrote: post #74

kinghtown wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah no people like you say that yet shelter children from seeing graphic images of where meat comes from. It’s it ain’t so bad then you’d think there would be more pride in it. But animal cruelty is actually one of the weaker arguments for becoming vegan because it requires, as I said earlier, an a-ha realization that animals are aware, intelligent, feel pain and sadness, deserve more from us as the stewards of this…

>> Yeah no people like you say that yet shelter children from seeing graphic images of where meat comes from. I don't buy that. People are sensitive to certain images. I can't stand to dental surgery videos either and definitely I don't think children would get any benefit from watching such material but that doesn't make dental surgery something people shouldn't do. That being said as a child I've been exposed to an…

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Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#114

Post by uxcolumbo » Wed, Jun 15, 2022, 2:23 PM UTC

ianai wrote: post #32

kinghtown wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like most people are like one or two a-ha insights away from veganism. Intelligence and awareness definitely has a spectrum across the animal kingdom but I’m not so sure about sentience itself. Do fish feel pain? Do insects experience fear? It is very difficult to to empathize with a spider or imagine that a scorpion could feel contentment, but as we we climb up the kingdom to vertebrates and especially mammal…

Vegan here, too. It’s totally duh-level obvious that nonhumans are plenty smart to feel emotions that we shouldn’t inflict. I don’t have such optimism towards people. Look at how poorly we treat each other. If we actually had some strong empathetic tendencies as a species we wouldn’t kill each other. There are many species which don’t. Instead I’ve got a coworker who’s gladly told me about killing his cows calves in…

I'm sorry to hear you have to work with such a person. Most probably a psychopath and sadist.

Who takes joy in killing babies in front of their mothers? And then gloating about it. Only a seriously effed up mind.

What's the solution? Report to HR?

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#115

Post by sweetheart » Wed, Jun 15, 2022, 2:29 PM UTC

prometheus76 wrote: post #106

sweetheart wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rituals around slaughter don’t make the slaughter humane. You know that and I know that. If an animal is being killed for you when you don’t need to kill it to survive, it’s unnecessary suffering and animal abuse. Plain and simple. Genuine survival situations are different, but that is so rare in the developed world. Saying a prayer doesn’t change anything. You didn’t give the animal the best life you could. You gave…

We didn't kill our animals to consume it for our pleasure. We grew up very poor and did not have enough land to grow enough food to survive through the winter. We had a large garden and most of my summers were spent working in the garden, and much of the autumn was filled with days of standing in front of a huge pot filled with vegetables, canning them for winter. We were not wealthy and did not have a store close en…

Veganism explicitly makes room for people who are in situations where eating animal products is required to survive. I even explicitly mentioned that several times in what I wrote: when it’s not necessary, it’s wrong.

There is no moral obligation in a situation with a lack of choice. However, the VAST majority of people are not in situations where animal products must be eaten to survive.

But are you in that situation now? Do you need to eat animals to survive? If not, why do you do it?

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#116

Post by prometheus76 » Wed, Jun 15, 2022, 2:46 PM UTC

sweetheart wrote: post #115

prometheus76 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We didn't kill our animals to consume it for our pleasure. We grew up very poor and did not have enough land to grow enough food to survive through the winter. We had a large garden and most of my summers were spent working in the garden, and much of the autumn was filled with days of standing in front of a huge pot filled with vegetables, canning them for winter. We were not wealthy and did not have a store close en…

Veganism explicitly makes room for people who are in situations where eating animal products is required to survive. I even explicitly mentioned that several times in what I wrote: when it’s not necessary, it’s wrong. There is no moral obligation in a situation with a lack of choice. However, the VAST majority of people are not in situations where animal products must be eaten to survive. But are you in that situatio…

I'm an Orthodox Christian, so I do not eat animal products (no meat, no dairy, no eggs, no olive oil, and no wine, to be specific) during our fasting periods throughout the liturgical year. Those fasting periods add up to more than six months out of the year. On non-fasting days I eat things from the list above to renew my strength and because I am just as prone to sins of the right-hand (being too strict) as I am prone to sins of the left hand (being too lax). If I were to not eat those foods at any time, I would personally be very prone to pride and to thinking of myself as "more spiritual" than those around me, which is a spiritual danger worse than what might come about from eating meat.

We are called to walk the Royal Path, and for those in the workaday world, that includes eating meat sometimes, and not eating meat sometimes. Regardless of what we are eating, however, we offer prayers of gratitude and thanksgiving and sorrow for living by the death of other living things.

If I were an Orthodox Christian monk, I would follow the restrictions I listed above all the time because those foods are known to enflame the passions, but are more necessary when one is working for a living and raising a family. I would spend much more time in prayer than my current schedule allows, however, but that is not my path at this time.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#117

Post by sky-kedge0749 » Wed, Jun 15, 2022, 2:48 PM UTC

ttrmw wrote: post #69

kinghtown wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a 145 kg bench press with 17 inch biceps. How about you?

Apart from selfishly loving the taste of meat, convenience of nutrition for sport (ie getting 200g protein on 2500 cals or less) is really the only justification I have for meat consumption. Any suggested reading for someone like me?

Do you really need 200g protein at 2500 calories? Those numbers seem off to me, 200g protein is what a big guy trying to gain a lot of muscle might eat to make absolutely sure he's getting enough, but 2500 calories is what a big guy would eat to maintain or even lose weight. Everyone is different, but you might need either less protein or more calories than you think you do.

If 200/2500 really is the goal then I'm not sure you can do it without meat, or at least without lots of protein powder supplements. The highest protein/calorie ratio for normal food I can think of is from soy milk or lentils, which are both roughly the same at around 1g/protein per 11-13 calories, and you'd have to eat those exclusively.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#118

Post by prometheus76 » Wed, Jun 15, 2022, 2:56 PM UTC

pxc wrote: post #108

prometheus76 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dogs will also follow the gaze of a person, which is unique to them, as far as I remember. Cats will shit on your pillow if they are unhappy with the environment for some reason. That's particularly disturbing. I have a cat and three dogs as pets and it's interesting to see how they all interact with us and with the world differently. Even the three dogs are unique. They are all different breeds and very different in…

> Cats will shit on your pillow if they are unhappy with the environment for some reason. That's particularly disturbing. That's a territorial insecurity thing, though, right? It's not a protest or revenge. It is definitely naturally disturbing to humans, though.

Yeah my cat and the most recent dog to join our household did not get along, and the cat let us know he was angry with the situation in various ways, including pooping on our bed. We got him a multi-level cat cage that he could go into and out of at will, but that was inaccessible to the dog, and the pooping in our personal spaces stopped literally overnight. He's much happier now that he has his own space he can retreat to when the dogs come in the house in the evening.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#119

Post by sweetheart » Wed, Jun 15, 2022, 3:11 PM UTC

prometheus76 wrote: post #116

sweetheart wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Veganism explicitly makes room for people who are in situations where eating animal products is required to survive. I even explicitly mentioned that several times in what I wrote: when it’s not necessary, it’s wrong. There is no moral obligation in a situation with a lack of choice. However, the VAST majority of people are not in situations where animal products must be eaten to survive. But are you in that situatio…

I'm an Orthodox Christian, so I do not eat animal products (no meat, no dairy, no eggs, no olive oil, and no wine, to be specific) during our fasting periods throughout the liturgical year. Those fasting periods add up to more than six months out of the year. On non-fasting days I eat things from the list above to renew my strength and because I am just as prone to sins of the right-hand (being too strict) as I am pr…

> We are called to walk the Royal Path, and for those in the workaday world, that includes eating meat sometimes

If I'm interpreting this correctly, you're saying you eat meat for 2 reasons. The first is that not doing so would make you too prideful, and the second is because it's in the "Royal Path", which we are called to.

I think the pigs, sheep, chickens, etc. would prefer you feel a little prideful, compared to what happens to them when you eat to them [1]. As for the "Royal Path" can you elaborate? Why does the Royal Path condone violence against non-humans?

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF7Ega_TpZE

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#120

Post by prometheus76 » Wed, Jun 15, 2022, 3:19 PM UTC

sweetheart wrote: post #119

prometheus76 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an Orthodox Christian, so I do not eat animal products (no meat, no dairy, no eggs, no olive oil, and no wine, to be specific) during our fasting periods throughout the liturgical year. Those fasting periods add up to more than six months out of the year. On non-fasting days I eat things from the list above to renew my strength and because I am just as prone to sins of the right-hand (being too strict) as I am pr…

> We are called to walk the Royal Path, and for those in the workaday world, that includes eating meat sometimes If I'm interpreting this correctly, you're saying you eat meat for 2 reasons. The first is that not doing so would make you too prideful, and the second is because it's in the "Royal Path", which we are called to. I think the pigs, sheep, chickens, etc. would prefer you feel a little prideful, compared to…

I already answered that question when I said "...which is a spiritual danger worse than what might come about from eating meat", but you are ignoring my answer because you disagree, or because you do not recognize that danger. Pride is the most dangerous of all passions, and is the mother of all the other passions.