Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans • Hacker News Board

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#101

Post by sweetheart » Wed, Jun 15, 2022, 1:33 PM UTC

prometheus76 wrote: post #100

sweetheart wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but people generally have a problem watching extreme senseless violence perpetrated against innocent people, which is more analogous to what happens to the animals that carnists eat.

I grew up on a farm. We were always grateful and a little sad when we slaughtered an animal, and we said a prayer for it when we slaughtered it. We always did our best to make our animals comfortable while alive, and made their death as quick as possible with as little suffering as possible. Life survives on life. Something died so that you could live today. I think about that often, and I think that growing up confr…

Rituals around slaughter don’t make the slaughter humane. You know that and I know that. If an animal is being killed for you when you don’t need to kill it to survive, it’s unnecessary suffering and animal abuse. Plain and simple. Genuine survival situations are different, but that is so rare in the developed world.

Saying a prayer doesn’t change anything. You didn’t give the animal the best life you could. You gave it the best life until you decide you wanted to consume it for your pleasure. Not survival, pleasure.

And vegans are well aware that life consumes life. Vegans consume living things. They just don’t consume living things which are capable of terror or depression and suffering.

Say a prayer all you want, but harming an animal when you don’t need to is the act of abusing an animal for pleasure. I can say a prayer and be remorseful and thank a dog for its sacrifice after I put it in a dog fight and it got ripped apart, but that’s still animal abuse. It’s still wrong. And like eating animals in the developed world, it’s for pleasure.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#102

Post by pxc » Wed, Jun 15, 2022, 1:36 PM UTC

prometheus76 wrote: post #97

nahuel0x wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, the relationship between qualia and intelligence is a mystery. Maybe spiders or ants "feel" more or are more subjectively "alive" than us, or in a complete different qualia space. Maybe in qualia matters we are closer to rocks than them.

What is qualia? I've never heard that word before, and I don't want to go down some weird rabbit hole and get lost. Got any references you could share?

Qualia are elements of subjectivity, e.g., the color red or the taste of chocolate as we experience them, rather than their physical corrolaries out in the world.

I think the idea of alternative 'qualia spaces' here is being used to say, essentially, that other creatures might have radically different subjectivities to the point that we would struggle to recognize them or make analogies to them, but that there would still clearly be subjective experiences for them.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#103

Post by pxc » Wed, Jun 15, 2022, 1:46 PM UTC

shakes_mcjunkie wrote: post #2

I had a conversation recently with a friend about the classic cats vs. dogs, which species is more intelligent. It was surprising to me how dismissive he was about cat intelligence and adamant that they were nowhere near dogs' intelligence, mostly based on the ability to train dogs. I've clicker trained my cats to sit and also to follow my finger. Searching around the net and YouTube you can find cats learning all ki…

> I've clicker trained my cats to sit and also to follow my finger.

Dogs are so invested in human approval that even abuse can be an effective training 'method' much of the time. As you likely know, before scientific training methods started gaining popularity, this was the predominant tradition for training dogs. And in an anthropocentric way and from a position of utter ignorance, that somehow became the cultural standard. If you can't yell at or pinch or shove an animal and still have it be interested in pleasing you, it's 'not intelligent'.

It's absolutely absurd. It's not fair to dogs or to other animals, and erases the massive, fundamental similarity in the way dogs, cats, and other creatures of all kinds actually learn. All because humans struggle to separate the notion of intelligence from being interested in or useful to ourselves.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#104

Post by bitwize » Wed, Jun 15, 2022, 1:48 PM UTC

prometheus76 wrote: post #99

bitwize wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cats are solitary hunters but they form colonies, and these colonies have social dominance hierarchies. They have sophisticated vocalization and body language that's perfectly comprehensible -- if you're a cat. They are not as well domesticated as dogs, so humans cannot read them as well as they can dogs without training themselves in cat communication. Domestication has altered the dog on the physiological level to…

Dogs will also follow the gaze of a person, which is unique to them, as far as I remember. Cats will shit on your pillow if they are unhappy with the environment for some reason. That's particularly disturbing. I have a cat and three dogs as pets and it's interesting to see how they all interact with us and with the world differently. Even the three dogs are unique. They are all different breeds and very different in…

I have two dogs. They have "Sophia Grace and Rosie" energy. I don't know if you remember these two precocious British girls who were frequent guests on Ellen DeGeneres's program on the USA, and they would talk and rap Nicki Minaj songs. But one of them, Sophia Grace, was super energetic and outgoing and the other one, Rosie, would just hang back and act cute. And that's how my dogs are. They are as close as any sisters despite being unrelated and of different breeds, but one takes the lead and the other is content to follow (or just have a nap in her safe, easily defensible corner).

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#105

Post by Karawebnetwork » Wed, Jun 15, 2022, 1:48 PM UTC

polishdude20 wrote: post #15

I was surprised by the intelligence of a little spider I encountered the other day. As I was looking for my keys to enter the house, this little jumping spider was on the front door. As I approached the door he moved almost with anticipation. As I turned the keys, he got closer to the door edge. As I opened the door, he swung himself around the door and into the house ahead of me! At that point I decided if got this…

Jumping spiders are very smart. I follow a small youtuber who breeds them and let some free roam. They are trained to perform little "high-fives" with their front leg when he puts his finger in front of them.

They are a spider with very good eyesight. That allows them to interact with us way easier than other spiders and insects.

There are a few living on the outside wall of my building and sometimes they get get stuck in my sinks. They appear to have a good memory, at first they would avoid my hand now they seem to expect that I will be there to get them out and jump on me almost immediately.

I have heard they make great pets, the only issue is their short lifespan means you will need to let them breed if you want to keep them for a long time.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#106

Post by prometheus76 » Wed, Jun 15, 2022, 1:52 PM UTC

sweetheart wrote: post #101

prometheus76 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up on a farm. We were always grateful and a little sad when we slaughtered an animal, and we said a prayer for it when we slaughtered it. We always did our best to make our animals comfortable while alive, and made their death as quick as possible with as little suffering as possible. Life survives on life. Something died so that you could live today. I think about that often, and I think that growing up confr…

Rituals around slaughter don’t make the slaughter humane. You know that and I know that. If an animal is being killed for you when you don’t need to kill it to survive, it’s unnecessary suffering and animal abuse. Plain and simple. Genuine survival situations are different, but that is so rare in the developed world. Saying a prayer doesn’t change anything. You didn’t give the animal the best life you could. You gave…

We didn't kill our animals to consume it for our pleasure. We grew up very poor and did not have enough land to grow enough food to survive through the winter. We had a large garden and most of my summers were spent working in the garden, and much of the autumn was filled with days of standing in front of a huge pot filled with vegetables, canning them for winter.

We were not wealthy and did not have a store close enough to run to every day for fresh produce. We took care of our animals because we relied on them for our survival. We did not take that for granted, and we did not do it for pleasure.

I understand that in an urban environment, surrounded by bountiful food (most of which is raised in other countries and is only available, out of local season, because of a complex web of global trade) the idea of killing and eating an animal can seem cruel or unnecessary. But your lack of experience of true poverty and lack of access to that sort of bounteous and constant source of non-animal products does not make all meat eaters inhumane and uncaring.

I find your broad, general statements of moral superiority because of your vegan lifestyle to be ignorant and a result of having grown up in opulence and wealth, surrounded by bounty and options, with little reflection or concern for those who did not grow up in those circumstances, or consideration as to whether they could still be moral and respectful in their desperation and struggles to survive.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#107

Post by sky-kedge0749 » Wed, Jun 15, 2022, 1:56 PM UTC

ianai wrote: post #32

kinghtown wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like most people are like one or two a-ha insights away from veganism. Intelligence and awareness definitely has a spectrum across the animal kingdom but I’m not so sure about sentience itself. Do fish feel pain? Do insects experience fear? It is very difficult to to empathize with a spider or imagine that a scorpion could feel contentment, but as we we climb up the kingdom to vertebrates and especially mammal…

Vegan here, too. It’s totally duh-level obvious that nonhumans are plenty smart to feel emotions that we shouldn’t inflict. I don’t have such optimism towards people. Look at how poorly we treat each other. If we actually had some strong empathetic tendencies as a species we wouldn’t kill each other. There are many species which don’t. Instead I’ve got a coworker who’s gladly told me about killing his cows calves in…

No post body was provided.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#108

Post by pxc » Wed, Jun 15, 2022, 1:57 PM UTC

prometheus76 wrote: post #99

bitwize wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cats are solitary hunters but they form colonies, and these colonies have social dominance hierarchies. They have sophisticated vocalization and body language that's perfectly comprehensible -- if you're a cat. They are not as well domesticated as dogs, so humans cannot read them as well as they can dogs without training themselves in cat communication. Domestication has altered the dog on the physiological level to…

Dogs will also follow the gaze of a person, which is unique to them, as far as I remember. Cats will shit on your pillow if they are unhappy with the environment for some reason. That's particularly disturbing. I have a cat and three dogs as pets and it's interesting to see how they all interact with us and with the world differently. Even the three dogs are unique. They are all different breeds and very different in…

> Cats will shit on your pillow if they are unhappy with the environment for some reason. That's particularly disturbing.

That's a territorial insecurity thing, though, right? It's not a protest or revenge.

It is definitely naturally disturbing to humans, though.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#109

Post by prometheus76 » Wed, Jun 15, 2022, 1:58 PM UTC

pxc wrote: post #102

prometheus76 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is qualia? I've never heard that word before, and I don't want to go down some weird rabbit hole and get lost. Got any references you could share?

Qualia are elements of subjectivity, e.g., the color red or the taste of chocolate as we experience them , rather than their physical corrolaries out in the world. I think the idea of alternative 'qualia spaces' here is being used to say, essentially, that other creatures might have radically different subjectivities to the point that we would struggle to recognize them or make analogies to them, but that there would…

I see now. I definitely agree with you and believe that identity transcends any effort to quantify an identity. There are elements to any and every identity (and person) that cannot be quantified with a measuring device and an Excel spreadsheet, and to ignore those elements of our experience is to ignore what it is that makes us human, in my opinion.

This idea is captured well in the difference between the terms "personnel" and "human resources". The former feels much more like treating people as individuals, with needs, concerns, and abilities that are unique to the person vs. treating people as inconvenient and unreliable machines that need to be drugged into submission to the needs of the machine.

Re: Animal magic: why intelligence isn’t just for humans

#110

Post by prometheus76 » Wed, Jun 15, 2022, 2:08 PM UTC

HellsMaddy wrote: post #73

antux wrote: post #56

Recently learned that pigs are smarter than dogs and even 3-year olds. They're also very social, which makes them humanlike. For this reason I don't ever eat pork. It would be like eating dog or human meat.

May I ask, why does the intelligence and sociability of the animal sway your decision, as opposed to the animal’s ability to think and feel? Where is the line that separates eating dog or pork from eating cow or chicken?

I'm not the OP you're asking about, but on a related note: I don't eat dogs because they're omnivores. I try to stick as much as possible to only eating ruminants. But that's a completely separate issue than what you were asking OP about.