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Clarus returns home in macOS Ventura

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Re: Clarus returns home in macOS Ventura

#91

Post by dtgriscom »

jeffkeen wrote: post #16

This is so great. The 90s/pre OS-X Apple (the "BuT tHeREs No SOFtWaRe!" and "ApPLe is GoING tO DiiEE" Apple) had a sense of playfulness in their UIs that was largely lost when they became the Apple we know today. The Mac OS classic architecture definitely had some problems with its non-protected memory and cooperative multitasking, but what it _allowed_ were extensions that could really get in there and muck around w…

There was a very early (1985-6?) app called "Selectric." When you ran it, it immediately exited, leaving you wondering what the point was. Until the next time you started typing: every key you typed made a "Chunk!" sound, the spacebar went "-diggit-", and the return key went "zzzzz...DING." Way fun.

Re: Clarus returns home in macOS Ventura

#93

Post by GekkePrutser »

jeffkeen wrote: post #16

This is so great. The 90s/pre OS-X Apple (the "BuT tHeREs No SOFtWaRe!" and "ApPLe is GoING tO DiiEE" Apple) had a sense of playfulness in their UIs that was largely lost when they became the Apple we know today. The Mac OS classic architecture definitely had some problems with its non-protected memory and cooperative multitasking, but what it _allowed_ were extensions that could really get in there and muck around w…

> (the "BuT tHeREs No SOFtWaRe!" and "ApPLe is GoING tO DiiEE" Apple)

To be fair they did come awfully close to that point before Steve came back and reinvigorated the place.

That sentiment was not entirely misplaced at the time.

Re: Clarus returns home in macOS Ventura

#94

Post by fubar12 »

Alex3917 wrote: post #19
jeffkeen wrote: post #16

This is so great. The 90s/pre OS-X Apple (the "BuT tHeREs No SOFtWaRe!" and "ApPLe is GoING tO DiiEE" Apple) had a sense of playfulness in their UIs that was largely lost when they became the Apple we know today. The Mac OS classic architecture definitely had some problems with its non-protected memory and cooperative multitasking, but what it _allowed_ were extensions that could really get in there and muck around w…

Now they just need to bring back wild eep and sosumi.

I can hear this post.

Re: Clarus returns home in macOS Ventura

#95

Post by audunw »

CoryAlexMartin wrote: post #71
Klonoar wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who complain are loud. Just because they’re loud doesn’t make the UI changes bad. I find I legitimately prefer the newer UI of Big Sur onwards. I just don’t feel the need to shout it from the heavens. An alternative take: you’re really going to suggest that one of the richest companies in the world doesn’t do extensive UI/UX testing before putting things out the door? They’re not just saying “yeah, this looks…

Why do you prefer the new UI? I can make a list of reasons why it's bad. The only reason I can see why anyone would prefer it is because it looks "cleaner", but that cleanness is artificial and gets in the way when trying to parse and use the software. A good UI designer makes buttons look like buttons so our brain can quickly recognize them as such, without mistaking them for something else. A good designer has the…

> but that cleanness is artificial and gets in the way when trying to parse and use the software.

I really don't agree. When software/UIs were simpler, the buttons screaming loudly "I AM A BUTTON!" worked. Now it quickly gets way too busy. It was important when almost everybody was a computer novice and couldn't detect subtle hints and conventions about what is a button and what isn't. Now? Not as much.

Look at screenshots of older iTunes vs Apple Music. I can feel absolutely no difference in how fast my eyes finds play/pause buttons. I don't need borders around the icons when there's not a whole bunch of skeuomorphic noise around them, such that there being any visual complexity at all (icon itself) instantly grabs attention. I really can't see a single thing I think the old iTunes interface does better for common use cases. Not that the old iTunes was bad per se, just a different UI for a different time.

I agree that often UI designers go too far, but I think you can see a bit of back and forth going on, trying to tune into the perfect balance of simplicity and clear signaling.

Obviously, everyone is different. So it's not going to be perfect for everybody no matter which way they do it.

Re: Clarus returns home in macOS Ventura

#96

Post by Klonoar »

dmitriid wrote: post #81
Klonoar wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who complain are loud. Just because they’re loud doesn’t make the UI changes bad. I find I legitimately prefer the newer UI of Big Sur onwards. I just don’t feel the need to shout it from the heavens. An alternative take: you’re really going to suggest that one of the richest companies in the world doesn’t do extensive UI/UX testing before putting things out the door? They’re not just saying “yeah, this looks…

IIRC Apple doesn't do user testing because they know better. I have 20/20 vision and I had to turn on contrast and button shapes, the new design is so bland and unreadable. Macs have large screens and that's why... they changed all dialogs to be tall narrow boxes with center-aligned text? Properly labeled color-differentiated icons are now indistinguishable grays crowding the title bar removing all affordances (from…

>IIRC Apple doesn't do user testing because they know better.

Citation needed...

>The new designs break Apple's own HIGs and other recommendations like WCAG.

You may have missed it, but they redid that HIG and released it during the latest WWDC. This train has left the station and it ain't backin' up.

>Keyboard access is being removed or broken across all first-party apps.

How about you... list some of these apps? I've been using macOS since Snow Leopard and all my muscle memory on the keyboard still works.

The newer designs feel smoother and less constrained, and don't fundamentally feel at odds with how I work.

I will, however, give you this point with little argument:

>I have 20/20 vision and I had to turn on contrast and button shapes, the new design is so bland and unreadable.

Someone needs to smack Apple UI designers upside the head and tell them to stop using 255,255,255,1 as the light mode color. With how good their screens are it's just way too much.

I use dark mode exclusively and maybe that's why I have less complaints?

Re: Clarus returns home in macOS Ventura

#97

Post by Klonoar »

CoryAlexMartin wrote: post #71
Klonoar wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who complain are loud. Just because they’re loud doesn’t make the UI changes bad. I find I legitimately prefer the newer UI of Big Sur onwards. I just don’t feel the need to shout it from the heavens. An alternative take: you’re really going to suggest that one of the richest companies in the world doesn’t do extensive UI/UX testing before putting things out the door? They’re not just saying “yeah, this looks…

Why do you prefer the new UI? I can make a list of reasons why it's bad. The only reason I can see why anyone would prefer it is because it looks "cleaner", but that cleanness is artificial and gets in the way when trying to parse and use the software. A good UI designer makes buttons look like buttons so our brain can quickly recognize them as such, without mistaking them for something else. A good designer has the…

>The only reason I can see why anyone would prefer it is because it looks "cleaner", but that cleanness is artificial and gets in the way when trying to parse and use the software.

That's... your opinion, though. I don't particularly feel any friction when trying to navigate or use modern macOS, at least from a usability perspective.

Even the example everyone throws about - the settings redesign - I fundamentally don't find to be that bad. It follows modern UI trends so I can intuit how it works, thus if I needed to poke around to find something I'm not really left wondering how to do so.

On top of that, it's not a tool you're in constantly, and as long as there's a search box, you're probably going to use that anyway as a power user. I don't even think I've tried stumbling around the mess that's System Preferences recently, I just straight up head for the search bar.

>We use our computers daily, and even imperceptible improvements to cognitive load and the amount of time it takes to perform actions make a difference over time.

I've been using macOS since... Leopard or Snow Leopard, ish. The adjustments over the years haven't ever thrown me for more than a few minutes. I preferred the skeuomorphic UI trend for a variety of reasons (of which nostalgia is included at this point) but I think modern macOS/iOS has found a decent line to ride.

Re: Clarus returns home in macOS Ventura

#98

Post by andrekandre »

grishka wrote: post #77
derefr wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean, iOS-like? The new System Preferences has a very clear precedent in macOS: https://www.versionmuseum.com/images/operating-systems/class...

The new preference panes themselves are very iOS-like, and that's unprecedented.

i reminds more of gnome tbh

post big-sur, at least dark-theme, the overall ui looks very much like gnome in many ways...

Re: Clarus returns home in macOS Ventura

#99

Post by robertoandred »

Alex3917 wrote: post #19
jeffkeen wrote: post #16

This is so great. The 90s/pre OS-X Apple (the "BuT tHeREs No SOFtWaRe!" and "ApPLe is GoING tO DiiEE" Apple) had a sense of playfulness in their UIs that was largely lost when they became the Apple we know today. The Mac OS classic architecture definitely had some problems with its non-protected memory and cooperative multitasking, but what it _allowed_ were extensions that could really get in there and muck around w…

Now they just need to bring back wild eep and sosumi.

And the quack.

Re: Clarus returns home in macOS Ventura

#100

Post by _moof »

lxgr wrote: post #38
jeffkeen wrote: post #16

This is so great. The 90s/pre OS-X Apple (the "BuT tHeREs No SOFtWaRe!" and "ApPLe is GoING tO DiiEE" Apple) had a sense of playfulness in their UIs that was largely lost when they became the Apple we know today. The Mac OS classic architecture definitely had some problems with its non-protected memory and cooperative multitasking, but what it _allowed_ were extensions that could really get in there and muck around w…

I never had a Mac in the 90s/early 2000s, but a lot of this still sounds pretty familiar as a passionate Palm OS user at the time: No memory protection, no multitasking (not even threads!), more minimalistic than the competition at the time in many ways in its core features – but on the flip side, extremely extensible in almost every way. As I later learned, PalmOS was heavily inspired by Mac OS!

I wrote software for both platforms and it was shocking how similar they were. Like, surprised-nobody-got-sued shocking.
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