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Scotland starts renewed case for independence

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Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#651

Post by ErikCorry »

mvc wrote: post #621
ErikCorry wrote: post #228

Scottish independence is a bad idea for many of the same reasons that Brexit was a bad idea and Brexit has made Scottish independence into a much worse idea. Instead of being like the Czechoslovak break-up it would be more like the issues around the Northern Irish border. Having a huge land border which is an EU/non-EU border with customs controls would be massive economic disruption on both sides of the border. The…

> Having a huge land border which is an EU/non-EU border with customs controls would be massive economic disruption on both sides of the border. Is it really considered a huge border? There's only 5 roads that cross it.

29 by my count.

It's a rural area and the border follows some rivers that have a limited number of bridges.

No roads at all connect England with France, but Brexit still caused a lot of disruption.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#652

Post by aftergibson »

dubeye wrote: post #247
aftergibson wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope this isn’t too off topic but I’ve been living in the year for 12 years and never seen the acronym rUK, it’s been mentioned several times in this thread, what does the r in rUK stand for? (Forgive my ignorance of this is really obvious!).

Rest of UK excluding Scotland.

Well that makes sense, thank you!

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#653

Post by Engineering-MD »

randomsearch wrote: post #434
physicsguy wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scotland likely won't be part of the EU on an exit from the UK. If a country wanted to move to the EU, why move to a country that's just undergone an economic shock, and with new political divisions forming as competing visions of the future and huge uncertainty, rather than move to Ireland which is relatively stable politically and also has English as the working language, and a much larger existing financial sector…

"Scotland won't be part of the EU" Oh yes, and voting for Remain is the only way to stay in the EU. I think that argument has long since sailed. The EU will undoubtedly fasttrack Scotland straight back into the EU and single market before independence arrives. As a major English-speaking country in the EU, with ports at the periphery of Europe, strong exports, and a finance capital, Scotland will be in a great positi…

Spain might be an issue, and may veto their application to dissuade Catalonia from leaving.

Additionally, trade issues with likely open borders the rUK and EU would be significant and similar to the current NI problem

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#654

Post by Engineering-MD »

Erikun wrote: post #33

It’s certainly hard to argue that Scotland shouldn’t be allowed to hold a referendum again. Usually I feel that the one they had a few years back should stand but with brexit the situation feels sufficiently changed that the old result feels dated. But at the same time, the lesson should be that a simple majority is not a sufficient result. Either a qualified majority of some sort, with minimum participation threshol…

A higher threshold would be sensible. The difficulty is if you keeping asking a question, 15 No’s and 1 yes means yes.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#655

Post by scott_w »

mantas wrote: post #647
scott_w wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That last sentence is completely incorrect and is enough for me to safely disregard everything else you just said on the basis you don’t actually know what you’re talking about.

Even if some people try to challenge it and enable refugee shopping, calling it „incorrect“ shows that you don't know much about this topic.

It’s easy to prove me wrong: point me to the relevant lines in the relevant treaties or conventions that state this.

You can’t because they don’t exist. There is no obligation to seek asylum in the “first safe country.” This is a common trope trotted out by right-wing mouthpieces which is where I’m assuming you got the rest of your “facts.”

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#656

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

gadders wrote: post #442
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a saying about the UK's far right parties (the likes of UKIP, National Front (1) etc) that in the long run it's not a winning proposition, as the Tories can always adopt the same rhetoric, and they always have better suits. This has indeed happened. 1) https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/old-poster-sparks...

UKIP is not far-right. You can't just label anyone you disagree with as "Far Right". You have to base your argument on facts.

You can't just label someone as "not Far Right", just because you agree with them. That's denial.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#657

Post by reillyse »

smcl wrote: post #524
reillyse wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's pretty easy to see examples of what Scotland could be. Have a look over the Irish sea and Ireland is doing very well for itself just a little over 100 years after independence ("full" independence obviously happening slightly later). It seems very obvious to me that when decisions are made locally they are made in the interests of the people who are local. Being on the periphery of a country is not ideal…

> very very poor and depressed country Scotland suffered greatly from the decline of a few key industries in the 70s and 80s so and parts of it are indeed poor and in decline. But if you're to categorise a country by its very poorest areas, you'll end up saying the USA, France, England are very very poor and depressed. Scotland isn't Norway - that ship has long sailed and we should discard any ideas that oil wealth c…

True, it's not in the poorest of European countries, so maybe "very very poor and depressed" is not accurate. I feel it is a lot poorer than it should be though and whenever I visit Glasgow, Edinburgh or Aberdeen they don't feel vibrant and alive, they feel depressed, like everybody who wants to make a change has left.

The oil situation is definitely worth talking about. Not because I think the English should give the oil back, but because it's an example of what the problem is. There will be other oils in the future. The way the oil wealth has been extracted is how England plays the game. English companies and english investors take the lion's share with tax revenue and even oil flowing south of the border to be refined. I would be willing to wager that London did better out of North Sea oil than Edinburgh ever did. Of course they spend money on social services in Scotland all the while claiming that the Scots are lazy and tight fisted and could never manage their own affairs. If England wasn't running things up there the whole place would fall apart. It's the same story they have used everywhere, from Ireland (lazy drunken Micks) to India, the Caribbean etc etc. I just found out yesterday that the term "welch" as in to renege on a promise just means Welsh as in to be from Wales. Slightly ironic given how the English are welching on their international commitments in Northern Ireland.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#658

Post by ggm »

mvc wrote: post #635
ggm wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not enough of the reserves lie in Scottish waters. If you look at the sea area mapping the line runs a lot more north by Northeast than people expect. Scotland will make shitloads exporting hydro electricity. Probably more than oil and gas royalties

> Scotland will make shitloads exporting hydro electricity I doubt that. Hydro doesn't seem very exportable. hydro-tech should be though and Scotland could be well placed to attract investment in that (if only we weren't losing so many scientists to the EU)

Scotland exported 19Twh of electricity to England in 2021, which was about 30% of its generating capacity. It represented around 10% of english electricity power needs.

It's on a growth trend, the wind farm on dogger bank may alter the balance.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#659

Post by veltas »

zwirbl wrote: post #480
veltas wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Scottish leave voters hadn't turned out then the referendum would have resulted in "remain". So it's interesting to say in that context that "Scotland voted to remain" as many people simplify it to. 3:2 is a big margin and it's meaningful, but it doesn't define Scots.

That's a really creative way to spin a majority "remain" vote into a "leave" narrative

It's not creative, it's just being precise. And it's not even pro leave, it's just not as anti-leave as the inaccurate narrative.

I voted remain: not everything said about Brexit is rhetoric.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#660

Post by randomsearch »

krona wrote: post #626
randomsearch wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Scotland won't be part of the EU" Oh yes, and voting for Remain is the only way to stay in the EU. I think that argument has long since sailed. The EU will undoubtedly fasttrack Scotland straight back into the EU and single market before independence arrives. As a major English-speaking country in the EU, with ports at the periphery of Europe, strong exports, and a finance capital, Scotland will be in a great positi…

> strong exports Scotland's biggest trading partner (by far) is the UK. In 2017 Scotland was a net importer from the rest of the UK. Imports from the UK would have to have an EU customs tariffs applied, and Scotland has almost no influence on what those would be.

True, but it would have the option of importing from the EU tariff free instead.

England would have no such option.

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