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Japan passes revised penal code with harsher punishment for cyberbullying

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201–210 of 235 posts

Re: Japan passes revised penal code with harsher punishment for cyberbullying

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the fact that Americans have trouble understanding how one could express the full range of political ideology while still remaining civil and not bullying each other is part of the problem. One can express any proposal for legislative or judicial course of action without demeaning the inherent humanity of another and resorting to profanity, lewdness,and hatred. Learning to express opinions in this way can hel…

And again, what happens when people claim that a certain political view inherently demeans humanity of another? This is already the case: people already proclaim that some political views are inherently dehumanizing. Invariably, those in power will enforce these restrictions against their opponents to their own benefit.

Well, we could at least start with having people not use profanity, or tell each other to kill themselves.

I admit though I can't think of a good way to legislate the nuances of someone expressing an opinion that one ought not to be able to compete in sports of a gender they believe they belong to, without making them feel they are being dehumanized.

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On the subject of what led to this law, my girlfriend and I were avid watchers of the show Terrace House as the events that led to this person's death unfolded.

The girl had been quite rude to a foreigner on the show.

This was considered a huge disgrace to the nation of Japan, to have one of their own act so meanly to another, especially on as international of a platform as Netflix, especially to someone from what is considered a partner country, like the U. S..

This led to social ostracization where many Japanese were (civilly) telling her that she was no longer respected in general society, and questioning the extent of her ability to behave with civility.

I believe this (civilly said) cultural censure for her imopliteness likely contributed more to her feelings of worthlessness than any truly hateful and ignorant things said to her. Or maybe because she grew up in Japan she was just not emotionally prepared for hearing some of the hateful things people can say on the Internet (this is the public narrative).

Either way, it's a tricky situation, and many in Japan felt she was actually the one who began the degregation of civility with her behavior on the show, but none the less the resulting way people spoke to her was also not considered acceptable.

How can one balance expressing the idea that she brought shame to the nation while also not making her feel dehumainzed? I don't know. But I'm quite sure in the minds of the Japanese who wrote this law, the main thing they want to avoid is people telling others to kill themselves directly or cursing at them, rather than avoiding expressing judgemental ideas on one's behavior, which is common enough in Japanese society, to be subtly hinting at one disapproving of the behavior of others, while remaining civil.

Re: Japan passes revised penal code with harsher punishment for cyberbullying

#202
post #196
post #156

99% conviction rate. Nice law but practically, if you are accused you will get convicted. I don't know why they make a mockery of their judicial system. Either a ton of bad guys don't get tried or a ton of innocent people are getting convicted.

> Either a ton of bad guys don't get tried or a ton of innocent people are getting convicted. You missed a possibility. Maybe they put in sufficient effort during investigation and when deciding whether to prosecute to weed out all the innocent people then and build good cases against the actual bad guys. Very high conviction rights are symptoms of both puppet criminal justice systems that just convict whoever the st…

Not 99% good. It's like Kim Jong Il winning 100% votes because he is that popular!

The police and prosecutors must essentially be judges before the real judges who simply rubber stamp. Any lawyer would tell you a jury trial (if they have those) is 50/50 conviction rate and judges being human will have some error rate like there is a stat about judges in general convicting people more before lunch or at the end of the day when they are tired. You can't be that good consistently without something being done wrong, not with multiple human decision layers.

Re: Japan passes revised penal code with harsher punishment for cyberbullying

#203
post #185

Mark my words, this will be used to punish people for ideas that those in power don't like. Hate speech laws are dangerous because hate groups are far more dangerous when their true motives are hidden from view.

So you're claiming hate groups are less dangerous when they are allowed to recruit openly and operate in plain sight?

Yes. It's important for people like David Duke to let us know what he truly is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Louisiana_gubernatorial_e...

"Vote For The Crook: It's Important."

Re: Japan passes revised penal code with harsher punishment for cyberbullying

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That is more or less the precise opposite reading of "The Harm Principle" that Mill intended. JSM separated the Harm Principle from the Offense Principle, but still said that free speech should be curtailed when the expression harms individuals. Nowhere does JSM say freedom of speech is freedom from all consequences.

Is it just me or is: "freedom of speech is freedom from all consequences" a straw man that literally no philosopher or reasonable thinker ever said? Where does that even come from?

From GP above:

>"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Japan enacting harsher punishments for cyber bullying is not a slippery slope into free speech infarction, as the harm principle has always been part of the philosophy. GP's stance is based on an increasingly common misconception (these days in the U.S. at least) that free speech means freedom from consequence.

Re: Japan passes revised penal code with harsher punishment for cyberbullying

#205

As I get older I'm more in favor of this kind of thing. Freedom of speech ought (here I go; a terrible Kantian asserting an, "ought") to apply to political speech. Using FoS as a defense against aimlessly attacking others seems to undermine what is a basic expectation of civility (ie. not being made to feel unsafe) in advanced societies. I feel like there's a class of people that would gladly slaughter cows in front…

> not being made to feel unsafe Not sure how I have any control on how people feel. Choosing to feel bad over speech is not really my problem. Words literally have no ability to hurt people unless screamed with such volume as to cause hearing damage. Actions can hurt people. I ought not be able to take an action that causes quantifiable harm on another person. But hurt feelings? What’s the legal standard there? How a…

>Words literally have no ability to hurt people unless screamed with such volume as to cause hearing damage. Actions can hurt people.

This doesn't seem true; it is very possible to cause damage with speech alone, anything from hurting someone in a fragile mental state to the point where they might commit suicide, to spreading rumors about someone with full knowledge of what might happen. I'm reminded about the quote from a professor who said he'd rather break his left leg than have a false rumor begin to circulate about how he slept with a student. Your thesis rests on the principle of mind-body dualism (which is increasingly rejected among philosophers and neuroscientists alike), and that speech isn't itself an action (metaphysically, of course it's an action).

>But hurt feelings aren’t something that should ever be addressed by the legal system.

To say that any effect words can have on another person only amount to 'hurt feelings' is inaccurate. Every human alive knows the anguish and pain, sometimes even causing physiological pain, that words can cause. Mental states also have physiological effects of many kinds, such as mental stress leading to inflammation. The principle isn't alien.

>People really need to get thicker skin

Why doesn't the same apply to literal thicker skin or body plating to prevent being stabbed? Is that really what a civil society looks like?

Re: Japan passes revised penal code with harsher punishment for cyberbullying

#206
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not too certain. But here are some examples (NSFW). https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbols/search Looks like they involve discrimination (on race or religion or such). But Japan's new law is more general.

No, if you're making a law, you need to strictly define it. Otherwise we will create another fuzzy law that can be interpreted any way the judge sees.

A definition need not meet the legal bar for us to consider what kind of things a formally specified law might include; there are doubtless many possible definitions of 'hate speech', and debating those and reaching an agreement among various interested parties is part of the legal process that involves the whole of society. Someone is going to disagree with any definition given, but that doesn't mean that the sovreign lawmakers can't come to some agreement when put to debate.

In other words, unless the person you're replying to is a lawmaker with supreme authority, there is no need for them to speak for what you might have 'hate speech' defined as in law. Most people aren't lawmakers, but they are involved in the process of creating laws.

Re: Japan passes revised penal code with harsher punishment for cyberbullying

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO if you say X in real life and a judge says you to to jail then why would it be different if you said X on the internet or on the phone? Seems reasonable that your free speech has consequences if you cause harm even if your speech was on the TV,internet or a news paper. Regular laws should apply for all speech.

It's not exactly documented if someone insults me at a bar. "Cause harm" is a heavily subjective term. If I say you're wasting your time learning Haskell since you'll never find a job, and this triggers a mental breakdowns in you, can you sue me ? I'd argue the nature of social media actually encourages people to be meaner. If I'm a jerk at my local bar I can be easily banned. If I'm a jerk on Facebook or a scammer o…

The thing is not if I can sue you because I can, the thing is what a judge will do, will he laugh at me or he will punish you if you said something harmful that caused damage.

My point is why a judge should give different verdicts depending on the medium? Some accusation you made on Facebook with some photos hoped image could make more damage then same accusation made drunk at a bar, the judge should consider the damages not if you used FB, a phone or your mouth.

Re: Japan passes revised penal code with harsher punishment for cyberbullying

#208

It's crazy to me reading all these comments applying the American cultural, historical and legal context to discuss a Japanese law about bullying. You can't translate your usual talking points about American politics 1:1 to another country.

It crosses the line into chilling for me when I stop and ponder how many of the people who comment on topics like this are directly or indirectly responsible for framing policy at multinational corporations building global-scope communications infrastructures.

Re: Japan passes revised penal code with harsher punishment for cyberbullying

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it just me or is: "freedom of speech is freedom from all consequences" a straw man that literally no philosopher or reasonable thinker ever said? Where does that even come from?

From GP above: >"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably." Japan enacting harsher punishments for cyber bullying is not a slippery slope into free speech infarction, as the harm principle has always been part of the philosophy. GP's stance is based on an increasingly common misconception (these days in the U.…

> increasingly common misconception (these days in the U.S. at least)

I do dislike people who say "citation?" (and I don't wish to seem presumptuous) but can you give me any further links or prominent examples of that?

Is it a social media thing? I don't use popular SM or trawl the sewers of chans any longer, so is it there? Is that representative of a wider society?

Do people who hold the extreme view that "speech has no consequences" distinguish that idea from "speech can have have bad consequences, but that's better than the alternative of curbing free speech"? Or have we reached a kind of intellectual low point in places where these beliefs are purported to hold?

Re: Japan passes revised penal code with harsher punishment for cyberbullying

#210
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're claiming hate groups are less dangerous when they are allowed to recruit openly and operate in plain sight?

Yes. It's important for people like David Duke to let us know what he truly is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Louisiana_gubernatorial_e... "Vote For The Crook: It's Important."

But that doesn't support the thesis that the KKK would be less dangerous if they were allowed to burn crosses on every lawn and, say, given a free hour on television every day. We can know what these groups are, who their members are and what they believe while also limiting their ability to spread those harmful beliefs.
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