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We will never have enough software developers (2020)

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Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#221

Post by whimsicalism »

rightbyte wrote: post #3

Ye no. The reason is not Javascript framework churn. I feel the notation that the software field change fast is a MBA take on it since the in fashion key words change name all the time. I guess the underlying reason is that engineers wont be promoted to (real) chief engineers with agency. Being a boss requires reports for some reason. So experienced people leave sweetshops to escape the grind when they get fed up.

To me it is acceptable if the management class is drawn from tech people. MBA people are largely.. not the type of person I am interested in being managed by.

Big tech that I work at generally doesn't have MBA type managers and it is good.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#222

Post by klausa »

fileeditview wrote: post #120
Gigachad wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m from a small Australian city. I earn in the top 5% of the country with 8 years experience and no degree. And I see all my friends who picked software in the same situation. It’s probably the most privileged position possible.

Maybe it's true in Australia.. however here in Germany e.g. your chance of being a top earner if you have no degree is near nil. Usually you are expected to have university degrees for tech jobs. There are also some without but it's the minority and their promotion prospects are a lot worse.

This is true maybe for big, traditional German corporations like Siemens or VW; but have absolutely not the case for any of the start-ups or any of the big tech companies from US.

And especially not true after 2020, when so many more companies are willing to hire people remotely, often for close-to-US-levels of pay.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#223

Post by [deleted] »

vsareto wrote: post #142
alexfromapex wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So many things I have to disagree with. Not all software engineering is easy, particularly the highly paid variety. The six figure salary is diluted by spending weekends constantly having to learn new technology off the clock. Companies then expect senior engineers to mentor other engineers and give presentations of their technical challenges, debasing the value of the knowledge gained working off the clock. Manual l…

>The six figure salary is diluted by spending weekends constantly having to learn new technology off the clock You don't need to do this forever. Usually you can just focus on a stack and related technologies and do well. Once you have experience and a clearly defined need, ad-hoc research is good enough.

[deleted]

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#224

Post by whimsicalism »

988747 wrote: post #8

I read an article some time ago with the reasoning that went like this: "The goal of software development is to automate things. So, in principle, with time there should be less demand for software development skills because most of the hard work has already been done, and we have better, more high level tools. The only reason we see demand for software developers growing is because we let the bad developers in :) Ba…

There's a much more obvious resolution to this problem that applies to the economy writ large.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#225

Post by cleandreams »

I retired a bit early and I have found it immensely rewarding to take classes in various hard technical subjects. Some of these are directly applicable to jobs I could do, or have done. I think tech employers should be more supportive of life long learning. I get dinged by recruiters constantly because my resume is great but I'd rather do this, TBH. I have worked in FAANG btw. Retired at principal level.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#226

Post by shakow »

rednerrus wrote: post #192
q-big wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can't get on the "It is a hard-knock life for Software developers" train. We are very-very well compensated, and we are insufferable. The compensation can be high if you work in Silicon Valley (even though the cost of living is high there). The standard corporate programming job is already paid much worse. Also in a lot of countries that are not the USA, software development is not such a well-paying job.

The average SWE in America is making $93,000. Average teacher is about $65,000, Average construction worker $38,000, average bartender $65,000, average hotel worker $45,000.

Average construction worker, bartender & hotel worker don't have a Bsc/Msc.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#227

Post by weatherlite »

Enginerrrd wrote: post #200
cs137 wrote: post #10

There isn't a shortage of software developers. The pay isn't great--the kids getting $300K packages out of Stanford are an exception; it's a marketing expense. In fact, if you control for the level of intelligence it takes to be any good, SWEs make less (and get far less autonomy--do you think lawyers work on Jira tickets?) than any other professional, and they hit a salary/challenge plateau quick... after which, the…

This is... To be charitable: uninformed. As a civil engineer: I assure you my studies were QUITE rigorous. The job is very demanding, and I assure you the complexity can be very high, the consequences of mistakes are severe and occur over a massive variety of time scales. I had to work for four years apprenticing under licensed engineers after school and pass no fewer than four examinations, and get 4 licensed engine…

Wow unfair, is it because you work for the public sector that the salary is mediocre? It is not a bad wage but indeed sounds like the salary should be 50% higher.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#228

Post by dubswithus »

tut-urut-utut wrote: post #204
dubswithus wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens if you do it anyway and don't put it on the board?

Why would you do that? Worst case, you get criticized for doing unauthorized work. Best case, you spend your time on a task that gets unnoticed, and now you have to do overtime to do stuff that you are assigned to and actually supposed to do.

I don't mind criticism. I've been chewed out before. I refuse to work overtime and if push comes to shove I'll find a new job.

Why would I do it? Bit of a rebel I guess.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#229

Post by popotamonga »

xur17 wrote: post #207
wes-k wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've dreamed about a 20% policy like google had, except it's where you can work on anything, including code debt. I've tried to stress to managers in the past that developers feel the pain of code debt. It makes us slower! Enable us to spend time sharpening our tools and managing our codebase. One problem of course is, not all SWE can do this well. I wouldn't necessarily trust a junior hire to recognize and execute a…

I've worked at companies that tried to have explicit 20% policies, and it worked okay for some period of time, but then became difficult to prioritize. That said, I've typically been pretty successful at casually using 10 - 20% of my time to work on random low hanging fruit (dev ergonomics, performance, etc). For some reason using a quiet Friday afternoon, or time between tickets seemed to work better than an explici…

At my old place they just overestimated my tasks complexity by 200-300%. I wasnt going to be the one saying no... So i had plenty of time to fix whatever.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#230

Post by dubswithus »

bendbro wrote: post #193
dubswithus wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens if you do it anyway and don't put it on the board?

You wasted time on something that doesn't get you out of PIP, into promotion, or a higher salary. At companies that micromanage, I would imagine your direct manager is the sole owner of your performance rating.

I'm not trying to get a higher salary or promotion. I make enough money. I can't say for certain since it has never happened but I would probably quit on the spot if PIP'd.
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