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We will never have enough software developers (2020)

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Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#191

Post by spacemanmatt »

drnonsense42 wrote: post #116
alexfromapex wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So many things I have to disagree with. Not all software engineering is easy, particularly the highly paid variety. The six figure salary is diluted by spending weekends constantly having to learn new technology off the clock. Companies then expect senior engineers to mentor other engineers and give presentations of their technical challenges, debasing the value of the knowledge gained working off the clock. Manual l…

A lot to disagree with here, but off the bat, many of the highest paid software engineers are the ones working the very least or not at all.

The more experience I have, the more I get paid for consultation on the basis of my experience. I understand how that works.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#192

Post by rednerrus »

q-big wrote: post #128
spicymaki wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't get on the "It is a hard-knock life for Software developers" train. We are very-very well compensated, and we are insufferable. I do understand the issue. Humans are prone to complain about any slight whether real or imagined. Millionaires will complain about not having enough money, A-list celebrities will complain about not having enough visibility, sports stars will complain about every foul play. Money ju…

> I can't get on the "It is a hard-knock life for Software developers" train. We are very-very well compensated, and we are insufferable. The compensation can be high if you work in Silicon Valley (even though the cost of living is high there). The standard corporate programming job is already paid much worse. Also in a lot of countries that are not the USA, software development is not such a well-paying job.

The average SWE in America is making $93,000. Average teacher is about $65,000, Average construction worker $38,000, average bartender $65,000, average hotel worker $45,000.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#193

Post by bendbro »

dubswithus wrote: post #184
dt3ft wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can’t even push to a git repo unless it has a linked work item/story/task/bug. So, in order to say, upgrade packages or refactor difficult to read code, the work item needs to be approved by a non-tech PO. Guess how much gets done outside of planned/micromanaged? Answer: next to nothing.

What happens if you do it anyway and don't put it on the board?

You wasted time on something that doesn't get you out of PIP, into promotion, or a higher salary. At companies that micromanage, I would imagine your direct manager is the sole owner of your performance rating.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#194

Post by whimsicalism »

iso1631 wrote: post #63
zarzavat wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a rather abstract view of making money. Other houses also go up in value. You only make money from the difference between how much houses in your area are going up, and how much houses in the area you want to move to are going up. And that difference may well be negative.

The alternate is not owning the house and instead paying rent, which means your rent would have to be far lower than the appreciating asset (house) and the cost of servicing the debt (interest part of the mortgage) That's certainly not the case in the UK. I'd be surprised if it were in the US

The primary reason buying a house is better is because the government has put it's thumb on the we scale to allow you to leverage the fuck out of your assets.

If you could get a loan of the same amount and yolo it into the stock market, I am not sure buying a home would come out better.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#195

Post by pantulis »

adriand wrote: post #81

I feel like the need to continuously learn new things is a feature of the profession, not a bug. It is certainly a difficult challenge, but I've always felt that the most important trait in a software developer is an eagerness to learn new things. I think the overall premise of the article makes sense, but where I differ from the writer is in how I view the need for constant learning and self-development. The author…

> I feel like the need to continuously learn new things is a feature of the profession, not a bug.

The bug is in our brains. After two decades, you are not the fast learner you were, especially after you manage to fill your clothes with keys traded for responsibilities.

Realizing that is a source of mid-life crisis. Trust me, I've been there.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#196

Post by voxic11 »

dubswithus wrote: post #184
dt3ft wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can’t even push to a git repo unless it has a linked work item/story/task/bug. So, in order to say, upgrade packages or refactor difficult to read code, the work item needs to be approved by a non-tech PO. Guess how much gets done outside of planned/micromanaged? Answer: next to nothing.

What happens if you do it anyway and don't put it on the board?

In my company it depends on the repo but worst case is you get arrested for making unapproved changes to regulated sports betting systems.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#197

Post by eropple »

dgb23 wrote: post #187
wes-k wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've dreamed about a 20% policy like google had, except it's where you can work on anything, including code debt. I've tried to stress to managers in the past that developers feel the pain of code debt. It makes us slower! Enable us to spend time sharpening our tools and managing our codebase. One problem of course is, not all SWE can do this well. I wouldn't necessarily trust a junior hire to recognize and execute a…

How does a junior become a senior? By trying stuff that cannot do well yet and making mistakes.

This is really important. At my first job, in 2010 or so, we were using Servlets. Not just Servlets, but Servlets with some home-rolled shims to make it act like Servlets 1.0 in a distinctly post-1.0 world. Doing pretty much anything in there was slow, and I realized it at the time. So during a hack week I built an MVC layer on top, with routing that didn't involve XML files and just--made it generally better. Or so I thought at the time. To their credit, the team took it seriously and gave it a try, and while in a vacuum it was a better system I hadn't understood how the people on the team thought about web development and it wasn't a better fit for them. They didn't feel like there was a problem, so a solution didn't make sense. It could've been technically amazing (it wasn't, but it was fine), but it didn't solve a real problem, so it was an academic exercise at best.

Other refactors and systemic expansions, like a slot-based system for advertisement placement, worked a lot better, because I'd learned a little about how to dig into what problems actually existed and how they were causing aggravation to people.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#198

Post by solardev »

dgb23 wrote: post #187
wes-k wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've dreamed about a 20% policy like google had, except it's where you can work on anything, including code debt. I've tried to stress to managers in the past that developers feel the pain of code debt. It makes us slower! Enable us to spend time sharpening our tools and managing our codebase. One problem of course is, not all SWE can do this well. I wouldn't necessarily trust a junior hire to recognize and execute a…

How does a junior become a senior? By trying stuff that cannot do well yet and making mistakes.

Ideally with guidance/mentorship though. There's a lot of stuff I learned the hard way that I wish I didn't have to!

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#199

Post by spacemanmatt »

sandoze wrote: post #100
tialaramex wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many lawyers have to religiously time track everything. Because hours attributable to a specific client are billed and billable hours are where the revenue comes from.

No SWE has been audited for pointing their JIRA ticket too high.

Totally not true. Creating room to sit on your thumbs through the time management system gets noticed by pretty much everyone. Some SWE roles are billed to client accounts hourly, too.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#200

Post by Enginerrrd »

cs137 wrote: post #10

There isn't a shortage of software developers. The pay isn't great--the kids getting $300K packages out of Stanford are an exception; it's a marketing expense. In fact, if you control for the level of intelligence it takes to be any good, SWEs make less (and get far less autonomy--do you think lawyers work on Jira tickets?) than any other professional, and they hit a salary/challenge plateau quick... after which, the…

This is... To be charitable: uninformed.

As a civil engineer: I assure you my studies were QUITE rigorous. The job is very demanding, and I assure you the complexity can be very high, the consequences of mistakes are severe and occur over a massive variety of time scales. I had to work for four years apprenticing under licensed engineers after school and pass no fewer than four examinations, and get 4 licensed engineers to personally vouch for my work before getting licensed myself as a civil engineer. I am personally liable, in perpetuity, for loss of life injury or property which occurs as a result of work that I put my stamp on.

As a licensed P.E (who is, dare I say, fairly talented amongst my peers even) with a total of 8 years experience, do you know what I get paid to deal with that complexity and liability? About $80k in medium cost of living area for 45 hours/week. That's not atypical. Does that "control for the intelligence" required of the job?

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