We will never have enough software developers (2020) • Hacker News Board

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#201

Post by _fat_santa » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 3:28 PM UTC

Gigachad wrote: post #59

cs137 wrote: post #10

There isn't a shortage of software developers. The pay isn't great--the kids getting $300K packages out of Stanford are an exception; it's a marketing expense. In fact, if you control for the level of intelligence it takes to be any good, SWEs make less (and get far less autonomy--do you think lawyers work on Jira tickets?) than any other professional, and they hit a salary/challenge plateau quick... after which, the…

Cry me a river. Software development is some of the easiest, highest paid work in history. The majority of the population is grinding away in tough physical labor or abusive service jobs getting paid pennies while software devs moan about only making low six figures and getting a few boring jira tickets while they sit in their home office reading hacker news for half the day.

> Software development is some of the easiest, highest paid work in history.

I joked with a girl yesterday when she asked me what I did. I told her: "I'm a dude that's paid way to much to sit in his living room and make websites and apps".

Not everyone will make $300k per year, but you'll probably still make way more than most other professions. Teachers make like $70k in good places, often times much less. Here we are sitting in our pajamas at home changing the background color of a button and making twice as much.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#202

Post by stonemetal12 » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 3:28 PM UTC

cs137 wrote: post #10

There isn't a shortage of software developers. The pay isn't great--the kids getting $300K packages out of Stanford are an exception; it's a marketing expense. In fact, if you control for the level of intelligence it takes to be any good, SWEs make less (and get far less autonomy--do you think lawyers work on Jira tickets?) than any other professional, and they hit a salary/challenge plateau quick... after which, the…

>do you think lawyers work on Jira tickets?

Yes, I more or less think they do. Unless they are a headliner or founder of their own firm.

Lets say you are a lawyer at glob corp, and they get sued. Do you really think you can say "Eh, the other guy has a point. I am not going to defend this one."? You either work the case defending glob corp, or you are no longer glob corp's lawyer.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#203

Post by cure » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 3:28 PM UTC

cs137 wrote: post #10

There isn't a shortage of software developers. The pay isn't great--the kids getting $300K packages out of Stanford are an exception; it's a marketing expense. In fact, if you control for the level of intelligence it takes to be any good, SWEs make less (and get far less autonomy--do you think lawyers work on Jira tickets?) than any other professional, and they hit a salary/challenge plateau quick... after which, the…

> do you think lawyers work on Jira tickets?

Probably not, but instead they get to bill their working hours in 6 minute increments. And they have to bill a high number of hours a day. Praise yourself lucky if you don't have to do that!

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#204

Post by tut-urut-utut » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 3:29 PM UTC

dubswithus wrote: post #184

dt3ft wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can’t even push to a git repo unless it has a linked work item/story/task/bug. So, in order to say, upgrade packages or refactor difficult to read code, the work item needs to be approved by a non-tech PO. Guess how much gets done outside of planned/micromanaged? Answer: next to nothing.

What happens if you do it anyway and don't put it on the board?

Why would you do that?

Worst case, you get criticized for doing unauthorized work.

Best case, you spend your time on a task that gets unnoticed, and now you have to do overtime to do stuff that you are assigned to and actually supposed to do.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#205

Post by automatic6131 » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 3:29 PM UTC

irrational wrote: post #144

rapind wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Software development is some of the easiest, highest paid work in history. Nope this is an outdated opinion. You can do just as well or better in trades (source: my electrician buddy). If you’re referring to the FAANG salaries (sub 1%) you’re comparing to doctors, lawyers, entrepreneurs in terms of opportunity cost. Your average joe programmer isn’t killing it like you seem to think, and they’d do just as well in t…

Yeah, but in trades you have to climb in hot attics, deal with sewers, work outside, etc. And you have to put in a full days work. How many of us developers actually put in a full 8+ hours? I know that I don’t. I can usually get my assigned work done in about four hours. Can you imagine an electrician or plumber or doctor or lawyer only working 4 hours a day? It’s insane how much I get paid for what I actually do.

>doctor or lawyer only working 4 hours a day

I'm absolutely sure that lawyers and doctors only work 20 hours a week.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#206

Post by dgb23 » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 3:29 PM UTC

cs137 wrote: post #25

JackMorgan wrote: post #5

A fascinating premise, and matches what I saw as an engineering director. The best just get bored and move on. I think many teams are unaware how much extra value is possible by retaining existing employees vs hiring new ones. Each year I'd try to make sure I was "making them an offer they couldn't refuse" with new interesting challenges, new tech, plenty of personal research time, as much pay increase as I could pos…

My experience, unfortunately, is that good managers like you seem to be don't last long. They get replaced by manage-up sleazeballs who'll never, ever protect the people beneath them because it's not game-theoretically optimal. The thing is, executives measure themselves by how quickly they get promoted into the next role, so no one cares that good management might reduce turnover in the next 2-3 years--in fact, the…

"what if we invest in their careers, and they leave?" - Does that also apply to decision makers?

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#207

Post by xur17 » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 3:29 PM UTC

wes-k wrote: post #90

cabraca wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its not just the best ones. If you remove people from the grind for 1-2 days a week, give them a small budget and enough autonomy to do what they want, most people will fix shit that bugged them for a long time. The main problem is how micromanage-y the current development processes are. Everything has to be a ticket/user story and has to be planned and approved by some people that never even wrote a single line of c…

I've dreamed about a 20% policy like google had, except it's where you can work on anything, including code debt. I've tried to stress to managers in the past that developers feel the pain of code debt. It makes us slower! Enable us to spend time sharpening our tools and managing our codebase. One problem of course is, not all SWE can do this well. I wouldn't necessarily trust a junior hire to recognize and execute a…

I've worked at companies that tried to have explicit 20% policies, and it worked okay for some period of time, but then became difficult to prioritize. That said, I've typically been pretty successful at casually using 10 - 20% of my time to work on random low hanging fruit (dev ergonomics, performance, etc). For some reason using a quiet Friday afternoon, or time between tickets seemed to work better than an explicit "work on whatever you want every Friday".

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#208

Post by cableshaft » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 3:29 PM UTC

sshine wrote: post #60

drekipus wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure HR managers know that the majority of jobs they are hiring for are different from the job they're in, with different pay scales and demographics. Infact I'd say it's their profession.

Also, HR Manager is a low-risk job. Recruiter is the high-risk equivalent. So not only do you compete with a lot of people for the job, the pay structure does not depend on performance.

Maybe, but I've also seen HR departments be the first to go in lean times.

We effectively didn't have an HR department at my previous job, at a company of 500+ people. And they did when I first started, about a dozen people.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#209

Post by rco8786 » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 3:30 PM UTC

q-big wrote: post #128

spicymaki wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't get on the "It is a hard-knock life for Software developers" train. We are very-very well compensated, and we are insufferable. I do understand the issue. Humans are prone to complain about any slight whether real or imagined. Millionaires will complain about not having enough money, A-list celebrities will complain about not having enough visibility, sports stars will complain about every foul play. Money ju…

> I can't get on the "It is a hard-knock life for Software developers" train. We are very-very well compensated, and we are insufferable. The compensation can be high if you work in Silicon Valley (even though the cost of living is high there). The standard corporate programming job is already paid much worse. Also in a lot of countries that are not the USA, software development is not such a well-paying job.

> The standard corporate programming job is already paid much worse

Data for this? Does not match my experience whatsoever.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#210

Post by whimsicalism » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 3:30 PM UTC

rootusrootus wrote: post #124

Patrol8394 wrote: post #110

There is no shortage of swe. What I see and what I have experienced first hand is that companies, especially the more hyped/small ones, pretend to be FAANG and gets very picky when interviewing. They often employ FAANG style interview. Now, if I really have to spend that much time prepping to interview at your unprofitable company (that most likely will go under) don’t you think that I would try my best to work at fa…

I definitely think "we do not do leetcode interviews" and maybe "we only have three interviews total" would be selling points on a job posting. People who are experienced in the field don't want to go through the same hoops that newbies do just to prove they know how to write basic algorithms.

Personally I do because I enjoy working with very smart people.

The backlash against leetcode is the same as backlash against other types of tests: most people are going to fail and most people don't like failing, so they blame the test.