What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really? • Hacker News Board

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#51

Post by microtonal » Sun, Oct 30, 2011, 9:00 AM UTC

muraiki wrote: post #36

msbarnett wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your point? Buddhism is not Christianity. It does not assert that it is the One True Path, and that it's teachings are the One Size Fits All solution to everybody's problems. It does not follow that what Buddhism teaches is bad for Buddhists (attachment to objects) is therefore bad for everybody, and that if you market something that someone may allow themselves to form attachments to, you have therefore harme…

So if Buddhism does not assert that it is the One True Path, what's the Fourth Noble Truth? In America, Buddhism tends to be portrayed in this sort of light: basically, that Buddhism makes no exclusivist truth claims. But for a Mahayana Buddhist to make the Bodhisattva Vow in the context of the Four Noble Truths necessarily entails teaching others about certain things which are True, to the exclusion of things which…

So if Buddhism does not assert that it is the One True Path, what's the Fourth Noble Truth?

The hand pointing to the moon is not the moon.

``Come, Salha, do not be satisfied with hearsay or with tradition or with legendary lore or with what has come down in scriptures or with conjecture or with logical inference or with weighing evidence or with a liking for a view after pondering it or with someone else's ability or with the thought 'The monk is our teacher.' When you know in yourself 'These things are unprofitable, liable to censure, condemned by the wise, being adopted and put into effect, they lead to harm and suffering,' then you should abandon them.''

AN 3.66

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#52

Post by larve » Sun, Oct 30, 2011, 9:20 AM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #17

larve wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In retrospect, that biography is quite lacking on a lot of points. It seems like Isaacson was not able to get through to jobs in any other way than Jobs allowed. Maybe this is due to him rushing the book to be released 2 weeks after his death, there is almost no analysis of Jobs. I also wonder how Jobs, as buddhist as he was, would rationalize his anger. In the book he repeatedly says "that's how I am", which is pret…

I can relate to this "Jobs wasn't a real Buddhist" nonsense because I practice Buddhist meditation and still can have a difficult personality. (I'm extremely intense and opinionated, to the point of being moralistic.) I was a lot worse when I had no spiritual path. The fact that I still have personal difficulties (as nearly everyone does, including most Buddhists) does not mean that my practice has been without value…

sorry for not being clear in my choice of words (english is not my native language). i didn't mean that jobs wasn't a real buddhist, but on the contrary, that he was a very serious and dedicated practitioner. I would have liked to know a bit more about how he saw his personality and style, as he obviously more than often had to ponder that in his zen retreats. Yet the only thing we get from isaacson is jobs saying "that's the way i am". I think it's a bit of a missed opportunity, and shows that isaacson was in the reality distortion field for pretty much most of the book.

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#53

Post by Confusion » Sun, Oct 30, 2011, 9:24 AM UTC

electromagnetic wrote: post #45

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Err, there isn't just "the thing" but a dedicated and directed marketing program to make you absolutely covet the product. Everything about capitalism, marketing, and advertising is about making us covet things so we buy them. Sorry, but there's no easy cop-out here. 99.9% of what Jobs did was marketing and its even more important than the product, imho.

Apple has made a business selling smartphones to people who covet them. Guinness made a business selling beers to people who covet them. Marlboro made a business selling cigarettes to people who covet them. Smith and Wesson made a business selling guns to people who covet them. No one needs an iPhone. No one needs a beer, or a cigarette, or a gun. People want them, and some people covet them. You're not doing harm wh…

If you purposefully exploit known shortcomings of people, to their own disadvantage, there's something very wrong with you as well.

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#54

Post by microtonal » Sun, Oct 30, 2011, 9:46 AM UTC

codex wrote: post #29

michaelochurch wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can relate to this "Jobs wasn't a real Buddhist" nonsense because I practice Buddhist meditation and still can have a difficult personality. (I'm extremely intense and opinionated, to the point of being moralistic.) I was a lot worse when I had no spiritual path. The fact that I still have personal difficulties (as nearly everyone does, including most Buddhists) does not mean that my practice has been without value…

This is a bit off topic, but can you suggest accessible meditation resources for the beginner? Are books sufficient, or is a teacher necessary?

You can start practicing meditation using books. But joining a meditation group helps enormously.

While the instructions for meditation are truly simple, taming the mind is not :). There are some pitfalls we all walk into, like attachment to serenity that meditation can bring or getting discouraged by roadblocks. Having a teacher or joining a group helps you not getting stuck.

In cities, there are groups in different traditions (e.g. Vipassana, Zen, Diamond Way). These traditions have similar goals and methods, they can 'feel' very different. So, it's good to sit in with different groups once or twice to see where you feel at home.

With respect to books, I really enjoyed "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind", but it can be a bit daunting. Philip Kapleau Roshi's "Three Pillars of Zen" is said to be a good introduction.

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#55

Post by Confusion » Sun, Oct 30, 2011, 9:47 AM UTC

msbarnett wrote: post #25

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Err, there isn't just "the thing" but a dedicated and directed marketing program to make you absolutely covet the product. Everything about capitalism, marketing, and advertising is about making us covet things so we buy them. Sorry, but there's no easy cop-out here. 99.9% of what Jobs did was marketing and its even more important than the product, imho.

What's your point? Buddhism is not Christianity. It does not assert that it is the One True Path, and that it's teachings are the One Size Fits All solution to everybody's problems. It does not follow that what Buddhism teaches is bad for Buddhists (attachment to objects) is therefore bad for everybody, and that if you market something that someone may allow themselves to form attachments to, you have therefore harme…

Apple and Jobs damn well know their marketing exploits societal pressures and individual shortcomings that also results in their devices being sold to people that can't afford them and suffer as a result of buying them.

Many philosophies allow you to defend such behavior, by pointing out the net advantage the devices have for all people that buy them combined. Buddhism doesn't, because it expects you to act in non-harmful ways.

In these days of mass communication, that basically means from abstaining from using mass-communication devices, because you can know, within reasonable doubt, that many kinds of communication will cause some harm. It's only within personal interaction with a small number of people that you can honestly attempt not to cause any harm.

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#56

Post by Jach » Sun, Oct 30, 2011, 11:25 AM UTC

bfrs wrote: post #14

To me Zen seems like a lot of vague mumbo-jumbo. It can be interpreted any which way you want, making it sometimes seem wise and profound. The Buddhism I learned is quite simple and clear. It just boils down to two Golden Rules: 1. The Golden Rule: Treat others as you wish to be treated. 2. The Golden Mean: Everything in moderation, nothing in excess. and the related commentary as to why these are good policies to fo…

Re #1: what if you're a masochist?

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#57

Post by Estragon » Sun, Oct 30, 2011, 11:38 AM UTC

bfrs wrote: post #14

To me Zen seems like a lot of vague mumbo-jumbo. It can be interpreted any which way you want, making it sometimes seem wise and profound. The Buddhism I learned is quite simple and clear. It just boils down to two Golden Rules: 1. The Golden Rule: Treat others as you wish to be treated. 2. The Golden Mean: Everything in moderation, nothing in excess. and the related commentary as to why these are good policies to fo…

No, it's a lot more than that. It is a practical method for awakening to aspects of life which most people hide from. Though you wouldn't know it from content-free, gossippy BS like in the OP article.

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#58

Post by michaeldhopkins » Sun, Oct 30, 2011, 11:42 AM UTC

msbarnett wrote: post #25

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Err, there isn't just "the thing" but a dedicated and directed marketing program to make you absolutely covet the product. Everything about capitalism, marketing, and advertising is about making us covet things so we buy them. Sorry, but there's no easy cop-out here. 99.9% of what Jobs did was marketing and its even more important than the product, imho.

What's your point? Buddhism is not Christianity. It does not assert that it is the One True Path, and that it's teachings are the One Size Fits All solution to everybody's problems. It does not follow that what Buddhism teaches is bad for Buddhists (attachment to objects) is therefore bad for everybody, and that if you market something that someone may allow themselves to form attachments to, you have therefore harme…

Christianity has one way into heaven, baptism, but beyond that things diverge quickly. It's better (IMO) than believing different religions but acting the same in practice. As Chesterton put it:

"So in Christendom apparent accidents balanced. Becket wore a hair shirt under his gold and crimson, and there is much to be said for the combination; for Becket got the benefit of the hair shirt while the people in the street got the benefit of the crimson and gold. It is at least better than the manner of the modern millionaire, who has the black and the drab outwardly for others, and the gold next his heart. But the balance was not always in one man's body as in Becket's; the balance was often distributed over the whole body of Christendom. Because a man prayed and fasted on the Northern snows, flowers could be flung at his festival in the Southern cities; and because fanatics drank water on the sands of Syria, men could still drink cider in the orchards of England. This is what makes Christendom at once so much more perplexing and so much more interesting than the Pagan empire; just as Amiens Cathedral is not better but more interesting than the Parthenon. "

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#59

Post by sambeau » Sun, Oct 30, 2011, 1:02 PM UTC

microtonal wrote: post #51

muraiki wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if Buddhism does not assert that it is the One True Path, what's the Fourth Noble Truth? In America, Buddhism tends to be portrayed in this sort of light: basically, that Buddhism makes no exclusivist truth claims. But for a Mahayana Buddhist to make the Bodhisattva Vow in the context of the Four Noble Truths necessarily entails teaching others about certain things which are True, to the exclusion of things which…

So if Buddhism does not assert that it is the One True Path, what's the Fourth Noble Truth? The hand pointing to the moon is not the moon. ``Come, Salha, do not be satisfied with hearsay or with tradition or with legendary lore or with what has come down in scriptures or with conjecture or with logical inference or with weighing evidence or with a liking for a view after pondering it or with someone else's ability or…

So, Buddhism agrees with Einstein rather than Heisenberg?

Einstein: The moon is there whether or not anyone is looking at it.

Heisenberg: The moon may not be there if there isn't anyone looking at it.

Buddhism: The hand pointing to the moon is not the moon.

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#60

Post by muraiki » Sun, Oct 30, 2011, 1:08 PM UTC

jinfiesto wrote: post #46

muraiki wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if Buddhism does not assert that it is the One True Path, what's the Fourth Noble Truth? In America, Buddhism tends to be portrayed in this sort of light: basically, that Buddhism makes no exclusivist truth claims. But for a Mahayana Buddhist to make the Bodhisattva Vow in the context of the Four Noble Truths necessarily entails teaching others about certain things which are True, to the exclusion of things which…

Buddhism may assert that there is a true path. The difference between it, and many other religions, is that you don't have to be Buddhist to walk the eightfold path.

What you've said is just an instance of skilfull means. Ultimately, the followers of other religions (or no religion) will suffer rebirth in Samsara and continue to experience suffering. To the degree that they walk the eightfold path via their current paradigm, that will determine the quality of rebirth.

Edit: My point is that Buddhism proclaims that the Four Noble Truths are applicable to _all sentient beings_. Not that they are applicable only to Buddhists. If that was the case, then the Bodhisattva Vow could be resolved simply by the cessation of Buddhism! But the Bodhisattva Vow is a vow to save all sentient beings, not all Buddhists.