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We will never have enough software developers (2020)

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Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#141

Post by fileeditview »

Gigachad wrote: post #132
fileeditview wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment already has a lot of responses but one thing I didn't see mentioned is about the tough physical labor. It is often neglected that working at the computer is really bad for your body. Sitting for hours is unhealthy and creates all kinds of problems: obesity, disc prolapse, bad circulation, so much more. Also your eyes suffer a lot and become worse much faster than in most other jobs. I agree that being a…

You do not need a 5+ year degree. I have no formal qualifications and have no issue securing six figure jobs. And I have seen many others do the same. You also have the ability to get a standing desk and take breaks to walk around.

Yea so maybe that degree thing is a German problem. I do not know the other markets/countries. Here, what I said is certainly true.

A standing desk is better than no standing desk but won't correct everything by itself. Taking a break and walking around is fine but I still need to get back to staring into the computer screen to do my work.

I don't know your age but for me it started with about ~35 that I realized that this has negative effects on my body.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#142

Post by vsareto »

alexfromapex wrote: post #109
Gigachad wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cry me a river. Software development is some of the easiest, highest paid work in history. The majority of the population is grinding away in tough physical labor or abusive service jobs getting paid pennies while software devs moan about only making low six figures and getting a few boring jira tickets while they sit in their home office reading hacker news for half the day.

So many things I have to disagree with. Not all software engineering is easy, particularly the highly paid variety. The six figure salary is diluted by spending weekends constantly having to learn new technology off the clock. Companies then expect senior engineers to mentor other engineers and give presentations of their technical challenges, debasing the value of the knowledge gained working off the clock. Manual l…

>The six figure salary is diluted by spending weekends constantly having to learn new technology off the clock

You don't need to do this forever. Usually you can just focus on a stack and related technologies and do well. Once you have experience and a clearly defined need, ad-hoc research is good enough.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#143

Post by q-big »

wes-k wrote: post #99
adriand wrote: post #81

I feel like the need to continuously learn new things is a feature of the profession, not a bug. It is certainly a difficult challenge, but I've always felt that the most important trait in a software developer is an eagerness to learn new things. I think the overall premise of the article makes sense, but where I differ from the writer is in how I view the need for constant learning and self-development. The author…

> the opportunity cost of working in a rapidly-changing field is highest for the best learners It's not that learning is an unattractive aspect (I agree, it's a great feature!). Instead it's that it levels the playing field between those entering the profession and those that have been in it for many years. Yes, you still have "experience" as an advantage, but you can't say you've worked with LATEST_TECH for many mor…

> Contrast that with other professions, like law, or medicine. Where it's not just "experience" working in your favor. But actual knowledge of the existing laws and medical practices.

In my experience knowledge decreases very fast if you work in a programming job (exception: if you use an insane amount of your free time to avoid this decrease).

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#144

Post by irrational »

rapind wrote: post #86
Gigachad wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cry me a river. Software development is some of the easiest, highest paid work in history. The majority of the population is grinding away in tough physical labor or abusive service jobs getting paid pennies while software devs moan about only making low six figures and getting a few boring jira tickets while they sit in their home office reading hacker news for half the day.

> Software development is some of the easiest, highest paid work in history. Nope this is an outdated opinion. You can do just as well or better in trades (source: my electrician buddy). If you’re referring to the FAANG salaries (sub 1%) you’re comparing to doctors, lawyers, entrepreneurs in terms of opportunity cost. Your average joe programmer isn’t killing it like you seem to think, and they’d do just as well in t…

Yeah, but in trades you have to climb in hot attics, deal with sewers, work outside, etc. And you have to put in a full days work. How many of us developers actually put in a full 8+ hours? I know that I don’t. I can usually get my assigned work done in about four hours. Can you imagine an electrician or plumber or doctor or lawyer only working 4 hours a day? It’s insane how much I get paid for what I actually do.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#145

Post by bluGill »

capybara_2020 wrote: post #89
Gigachad wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cry me a river. Software development is some of the easiest, highest paid work in history. The majority of the population is grinding away in tough physical labor or abusive service jobs getting paid pennies while software devs moan about only making low six figures and getting a few boring jira tickets while they sit in their home office reading hacker news for half the day.

Hmm what makes you think software developers are not abused? Maybe in your world they are not, but it regular to hear about devs working 12-14 hours a day. With bosses and clients harassing them even at off hours.

You hear about that in "high status" organizations. Most companies cannot get away with that, and treat their developers much better.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#146

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

Gigachad wrote: post #105
computerex wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I think the parent is comparing software engineering to other white collar professions like lawyer. In my opinion comparing SWE to blue collar work like construction is apples to oranges. Ofc the blue collar work is harder and more demanding physically. It’s better to think about whether software engineers are being compensated fairly relative to other professions like lawyers. I think they are given that wages…

You also don’t need to spend years in a very expensive education with tall entry barriers and taking on massive debt. But also, you had the info in doctor fakeries available and still chose software.

I think you meant doctor salaries?

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#147

Post by Mezzie »

mdorazio wrote: post #107
rapind wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Software development is some of the easiest, highest paid work in history. Nope this is an outdated opinion. You can do just as well or better in trades (source: my electrician buddy). If you’re referring to the FAANG salaries (sub 1%) you’re comparing to doctors, lawyers, entrepreneurs in terms of opportunity cost. Your average joe programmer isn’t killing it like you seem to think, and they’d do just as well in t…

Do you actually have data to back that up, or just one anecdote from a friend? Median pay for electricians is about $57k/year [1], and that's after 4 years of apprenticeship and passing the exam. That's compared to a median salary of over $100k for software devs [2]. Sure, you can make a lot of money as an electrician, HVAC person, welder, etc. if you own and run your own business, but your average tradesperson is no…

There's a huge difference in where plumbers vs. SWEs live, though. You have to compare the actual purchasing power. SWEs are more likely to be located in HCOL areas and therefore have higher salaries because SWEs need the infrastructure cities provide. Whereas there are plenty of plumbers who live in rural areas.

I have no idea how that comparison would shake out, or if the rise of WFH for tech people would/will change it, though.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#148

Post by BlargMcLarg »

Gigachad wrote: post #97
BigJ1211 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to be a perspective that's exclusively silicon valley (perhaps large parts of the US) based. Not at all true in Europe at the least. Not that it's a bad job by any stretch of the imagination, but even low six figures is really rare in the EU for Software Development. Easiest is also highly subjective, if your job is making wordpress templates/sites then sure. If you're working on complexer systems then thi…

I’m from a small Australian city. I earn in the top 5% of the country with 8 years experience and no degree. And I see all my friends who picked software in the same situation. It’s probably the most privileged position possible.

Getting a paper is almost mandatory here due to the ease of getting one.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#149

Post by mistymountains »

Ekaros wrote: post #64
bruce343434 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lawyers work on "discovery". Requesting and sifting through piles of documents. The jira ticket doesn't seem so bad.

In general to me the whole process of getting the degree, the bar and then the actually work and the pay unless you make it seems like rather bad compared to how easy SWE or related work can be. The school is laughably expensive for something that should in reality be rather cheap. Read books, listen to lecturers? No laboratory work or practical experience and so on, clearly overpriced. And the studying to get approv…

Exactly. I was into a half dozen top law schools and had a very good LSAT score but what you mentioned nagged at me until I chose a technical masters instead.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#150

Post by kungito »

irrational wrote: post #144
rapind wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Software development is some of the easiest, highest paid work in history. Nope this is an outdated opinion. You can do just as well or better in trades (source: my electrician buddy). If you’re referring to the FAANG salaries (sub 1%) you’re comparing to doctors, lawyers, entrepreneurs in terms of opportunity cost. Your average joe programmer isn’t killing it like you seem to think, and they’d do just as well in t…

Yeah, but in trades you have to climb in hot attics, deal with sewers, work outside, etc. And you have to put in a full days work. How many of us developers actually put in a full 8+ hours? I know that I don’t. I can usually get my assigned work done in about four hours. Can you imagine an electrician or plumber or doctor or lawyer only working 4 hours a day? It’s insane how much I get paid for what I actually do.

I don't have to imagine them because I see them while working for me or while talking to my friends who do the job. They go from coffee to coffee, work hard 6 hours for a day then take 2 days break, take 4 hour lunch breaks, say they are gonna come then come 2 days later, and many other stories. Now ALL of them hiked the prices 2x to 3x no matter the craft because of course THEIR material also "dramatically rose in price". Plumber, painter, glassworker, woodworker, electrician, you name it. Some things actually rose in price like steel or wood, but some rose only 20-30% and of course they double the price of work after the price of material "doubles".
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