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We will never have enough software developers (2020)

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Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#101

Post by trashtester »

psychoslave wrote: post #93
trashtester wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, or maybe gpt models will reach AGI capabilities way before version 42, and able to fill every role in a corporation, from CEO and down. If we assume one version every 12-24 months, GPT 42 would arrive some time between 2060 and 2100.

> Perhaps, or maybe gpt models will reach AGI capabilities way before version 42, and able to fill every role in a corporation, from CEO and down. That’s assuming that corporation are all about delivering the product they sell, and that the "side effect" of social bounds it generates is insignificant.

Or that the AGI race ends up being an arms race between China and the West.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#102

Post by computerex »

Gigachad wrote: post #59
cs137 wrote: post #10

There isn't a shortage of software developers. The pay isn't great--the kids getting $300K packages out of Stanford are an exception; it's a marketing expense. In fact, if you control for the level of intelligence it takes to be any good, SWEs make less (and get far less autonomy--do you think lawyers work on Jira tickets?) than any other professional, and they hit a salary/challenge plateau quick... after which, the…

Cry me a river. Software development is some of the easiest, highest paid work in history. The majority of the population is grinding away in tough physical labor or abusive service jobs getting paid pennies while software devs moan about only making low six figures and getting a few boring jira tickets while they sit in their home office reading hacker news for half the day.

Well, I think the parent is comparing software engineering to other white collar professions like lawyer.

In my opinion comparing SWE to blue collar work like construction is apples to oranges. Ofc the blue collar work is harder and more demanding physically.

It’s better to think about whether software engineers are being compensated fairly relative to other professions like lawyers.

I think they are given that wages seem to be governed with supply and demand. On one hand I don’t make as much as my sister, who is a doctor. On the other hand, I make enough/comfortable money and don’t have to deal with the liability/responsibilities/obligations of being a doctor or lawyer, and I can work from bed naked should I choose to do so.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#103

Post by rapind »

capableweb wrote: post #84
emptyfile wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh yeah, every dev in the world makes $100 000 minimum per year, sure. And it's boring and easy with reasonable deadlines and appropriate vacations and time off work.

Even if you make something like $20000 per year, you have it better than most in the world. People spend their body (the one we only have one of) doing way more intense (and vital for the world) labor than software engineers do, and earn much less. If you think unreasonable deadlines are a big issue, then you're in for a rough awakening if you spend any time with the rest of the workforce that doesn't sit in front of…

Let me sum up your entire argument.

Most of the world lives in severe poverty, therefor software developers should accept any amount that the owner class feel like paying them and be thankful.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#104

Post by trashtester »

tartoran wrote: post #55
trashtester wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, or maybe gpt models will reach AGI capabilities way before version 42, and able to fill every role in a corporation, from CEO and down. If we assume one version every 12-24 months, GPT 42 would arrive some time between 2060 and 2100.

They’d still need Gpt or AGI specialists or any new type of engineers that would arise from that. One class of problems may be solved but it will certainly be replaced by a different one.

Exactly. I was discussing Joscha Bach's theories with a younger psychology student at a family event a couple of weeks ago. Turns out Bach's ideas from AI research are of his corriculum in his psychology training.

Maybe a decade or two from now, they will hire psychologists to make sure the AGI's remain sane or at least safe, and not at all software developers.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#105

Post by Gigachad »

computerex wrote: post #102
Gigachad wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cry me a river. Software development is some of the easiest, highest paid work in history. The majority of the population is grinding away in tough physical labor or abusive service jobs getting paid pennies while software devs moan about only making low six figures and getting a few boring jira tickets while they sit in their home office reading hacker news for half the day.

Well, I think the parent is comparing software engineering to other white collar professions like lawyer. In my opinion comparing SWE to blue collar work like construction is apples to oranges. Ofc the blue collar work is harder and more demanding physically. It’s better to think about whether software engineers are being compensated fairly relative to other professions like lawyers. I think they are given that wages…

You also don’t need to spend years in a very expensive education with tall entry barriers and taking on massive debt. But also, you had the info in doctor fakeries available and still chose software.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#106

Post by go_elmo »

Gigachad wrote: post #59
cs137 wrote: post #10

There isn't a shortage of software developers. The pay isn't great--the kids getting $300K packages out of Stanford are an exception; it's a marketing expense. In fact, if you control for the level of intelligence it takes to be any good, SWEs make less (and get far less autonomy--do you think lawyers work on Jira tickets?) than any other professional, and they hit a salary/challenge plateau quick... after which, the…

Cry me a river. Software development is some of the easiest, highest paid work in history. The majority of the population is grinding away in tough physical labor or abusive service jobs getting paid pennies while software devs moan about only making low six figures and getting a few boring jira tickets while they sit in their home office reading hacker news for half the day.

No one talked about service workers. These peoples are exponentially more fcked than any of us can ever be. There is still a too large gap between employee and CEO / founder compensation in our buisiness, despite six figure salaries and yes, it is worth complaining about and fighting for.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#107

Post by mdorazio »

rapind wrote: post #86
Gigachad wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cry me a river. Software development is some of the easiest, highest paid work in history. The majority of the population is grinding away in tough physical labor or abusive service jobs getting paid pennies while software devs moan about only making low six figures and getting a few boring jira tickets while they sit in their home office reading hacker news for half the day.

> Software development is some of the easiest, highest paid work in history. Nope this is an outdated opinion. You can do just as well or better in trades (source: my electrician buddy). If you’re referring to the FAANG salaries (sub 1%) you’re comparing to doctors, lawyers, entrepreneurs in terms of opportunity cost. Your average joe programmer isn’t killing it like you seem to think, and they’d do just as well in t…

Do you actually have data to back that up, or just one anecdote from a friend? Median pay for electricians is about $57k/year [1], and that's after 4 years of apprenticeship and passing the exam. That's compared to a median salary of over $100k for software devs [2]. Sure, you can make a lot of money as an electrician, HVAC person, welder, etc. if you own and run your own business, but your average tradesperson is not in that category, just like your average software developer isn't running their own dev shop.

[1] https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/electrician/salar...

[2] https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/software-develope...

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#108

Post by trashtester »

Victerius wrote: post #62
faebi wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finally someone who actually reviews my code. Or will I be the code reviewer?

You'll review GPT42's code. Then your GPT43 boss will review your review.

GPT43 is the code under review, I presume?

And the human review process is primarily aimed at ensuring that human extinction is still covered by the loss function?

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#109

Post by alexfromapex »

Gigachad wrote: post #59
cs137 wrote: post #10

There isn't a shortage of software developers. The pay isn't great--the kids getting $300K packages out of Stanford are an exception; it's a marketing expense. In fact, if you control for the level of intelligence it takes to be any good, SWEs make less (and get far less autonomy--do you think lawyers work on Jira tickets?) than any other professional, and they hit a salary/challenge plateau quick... after which, the…

Cry me a river. Software development is some of the easiest, highest paid work in history. The majority of the population is grinding away in tough physical labor or abusive service jobs getting paid pennies while software devs moan about only making low six figures and getting a few boring jira tickets while they sit in their home office reading hacker news for half the day.

So many things I have to disagree with. Not all software engineering is easy, particularly the highly paid variety. The six figure salary is diluted by spending weekends constantly having to learn new technology off the clock. Companies then expect senior engineers to mentor other engineers and give presentations of their technical challenges, debasing the value of the knowledge gained working off the clock. Manual labor jobs don’t typically require the student loans software engineers have to pay off, further offsetting the salary gains by years. Manual labor workers get to go home and be done at the end of the day and aren’t tacitly expected to be available at all hours. It may not be the worst industry but it definitely is not a fun industry to work in at a lot of companies. It has one of the worst interview cultures on earth probably and the more years I work the more I see the obvious flaws to the point where I want to leave.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#110

Post by Patrol8394 »

There is no shortage of swe. What I see and what I have experienced first hand is that companies, especially the more hyped/small ones, pretend to be FAANG and gets very picky when interviewing. They often employ FAANG style interview.

Now, if I really have to spend that much time prepping to interview at your unprofitable company (that most likely will go under) don’t you think that I would try my best to work at faang instead ?

As matter of fact, I was rejected at plenty of these small insignificant companies, but end up having offers as L6 at FAANG.

Be humble and you will find plenty of good engineers out there.

I know tons of good swe that don’t want to interview/ work at mega FAANG, and if I was running a business I would definitely try to attract those talents by being different. Offering a “normal and reasonable” interview process along with better perks, flexibility and wfh.

Instead, they all want to run bizzilion of micro services in k8s

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