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We will never have enough software developers (2020)

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Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#91

Post by BlargMcLarg »

Gigachad wrote: post #59
cs137 wrote: post #10

There isn't a shortage of software developers. The pay isn't great--the kids getting $300K packages out of Stanford are an exception; it's a marketing expense. In fact, if you control for the level of intelligence it takes to be any good, SWEs make less (and get far less autonomy--do you think lawyers work on Jira tickets?) than any other professional, and they hit a salary/challenge plateau quick... after which, the…

Cry me a river. Software development is some of the easiest, highest paid work in history. The majority of the population is grinding away in tough physical labor or abusive service jobs getting paid pennies while software devs moan about only making low six figures and getting a few boring jira tickets while they sit in their home office reading hacker news for half the day.

There's absolutely zero point venting out frustration on fellow working class members when upper management and up are actively trying to reduce costs by cutting headcount and/or wages relative to profits.

This race to the bottom is how software devs will become the new "teacher shortage", and how wealth will continue to funnel to the upper classes with those on the lower end unable to climb up.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#92

Post by rootusrootus »

pojzon wrote: post #18

Brother is teaching at the University among other things and from the stories he sometimes tells me: I do not worry about agism or work at all. Lets just say that when we were studing, most ppl were not the brightest tool in the shed. Now its supposedly many many times worse.

Agreed. I hire interns every year, and I am continually astounded at just how incompetent so many people are who are months away from finishing a master's in computer science. On paper, I wouldn't expect a shortage of software developers. But as a practical matter, more than half of everyone I talk to who is about to finish their CS degree is very clearly not going to last long in this field. Not just because they are incompetent, but because software so clearly doesn't interest them. Right now they think the salary will be enough to keep them happy. Think again.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#93

Post by psychoslave »

trashtester wrote: post #11
speedgoose wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a software developer, you are going to use gpt 42 to develop software. You will probably write a lot less code manually, but it’s not a bad thing.

Perhaps, or maybe gpt models will reach AGI capabilities way before version 42, and able to fill every role in a corporation, from CEO and down. If we assume one version every 12-24 months, GPT 42 would arrive some time between 2060 and 2100.

> Perhaps, or maybe gpt models will reach AGI capabilities way before version 42, and able to fill every role in a corporation, from CEO and down.

That’s assuming that corporation are all about delivering the product they sell, and that the "side effect" of social bounds it generates is insignificant.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#94

Post by trashtester »

BlargMcLarg wrote: post #38
trashtester wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SWE's are not the only ones that think that their pay is low compared to their intelligence level, their education level, how tough, inconvenient or important their work is or what they feel they deserve for some other reason. For instance, I'm sure there are plenty of HR managers in various companies that are secretly furious about all the young young mostly males, mostly white or asian, still in their 20s, join the…

Why would the ethnicity or sex matter when these HR managers would still see the same differences regardless of ethnicity or sex? Either way, I'd think twice about putting HR managers as victims here when they are the main perpetrators of low raise budgets and high hiring budgets.

When people see that some other group of people, with identity traits different from themselves, are doing better than themselves on some metric, it often induces resentment. That's just a fact.

Whether its justified or not, varies with circumstances and what ethical system people have.

When black people in the 50's felt that way about white people and their privileges, most people today would see those concerns as justified.

When German people in 1922 became angry because most jews had enough money for food, while many Germans went hungry, and started believing in conspiracy theories, like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, most people today would say they were not justified. (though there are still some who secrely believe those things)

And when Hutu's wanted to "cut down the tall trees" in 1994, most people in the west only read the headlines, and didn't care that much.

In the case of HR managers being unhappy that software developer make more than them, some will blame some generic "wage gap", others will explicitly believe in some kind of Patriarchy conspiracy theory. (And a lot of HR managers, of course, are simply fine with things as they are.)

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#95

Post by rapind »

capableweb wrote: post #79
Gigachad wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cry me a river. Software development is some of the easiest, highest paid work in history. The majority of the population is grinding away in tough physical labor or abusive service jobs getting paid pennies while software devs moan about only making low six figures and getting a few boring jira tickets while they sit in their home office reading hacker news for half the day.

Yeah indeed. Coming from someone who had to work with physical labor before I started programming, software developers don't know how good they have it. "The pay isn't great", "treated far too shabbily", "dealing with bugs and bad decisions", "inadequate processes" and so on, sucks when development is the only thing you've dealt with, but you have no idea how it is to actually have a blue collar job if you're actuall…

Any white collar job looks better than McDonalds. It’s a ridiculous comparison.

I could say McDonalds workers don’t know how easy they have it. They should try picking fruit as a seasonal immigrant, because it will make them love working at McDonalds.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#96

Post by TexanFeller »

jonwachob91 wrote: post #53
cs137 wrote: post #10

There isn't a shortage of software developers. The pay isn't great--the kids getting $300K packages out of Stanford are an exception; it's a marketing expense. In fact, if you control for the level of intelligence it takes to be any good, SWEs make less (and get far less autonomy--do you think lawyers work on Jira tickets?) than any other professional, and they hit a salary/challenge plateau quick... after which, the…

>> SWEs make less (and get far less autonomy--do you think lawyers work on Jira tickets?) than any other professional Nurses are professionals too, and they will never see anything close to $300k/year.

The intelligence floor for becoming a nurse is low, so nurses have extremely large variance in their intelligence, knowledge, and training. Knowing someone is a nurse doesn’t mean you can assume they are pros. Some nurses keep up with the latest medical research papers and are overall similarly knowledgeable to doctors, and some know less about biology than I do and will tell you about vaccine conspiracies and how some homeopathic nonsense will help you. I’ve met people at both ends.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#97

Post by Gigachad »

BigJ1211 wrote: post #80
Gigachad wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cry me a river. Software development is some of the easiest, highest paid work in history. The majority of the population is grinding away in tough physical labor or abusive service jobs getting paid pennies while software devs moan about only making low six figures and getting a few boring jira tickets while they sit in their home office reading hacker news for half the day.

This seems to be a perspective that's exclusively silicon valley (perhaps large parts of the US) based. Not at all true in Europe at the least. Not that it's a bad job by any stretch of the imagination, but even low six figures is really rare in the EU for Software Development. Easiest is also highly subjective, if your job is making wordpress templates/sites then sure. If you're working on complexer systems then thi…

I’m from a small Australian city. I earn in the top 5% of the country with 8 years experience and no degree. And I see all my friends who picked software in the same situation.

It’s probably the most privileged position possible.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#98

Post by trashtester »

dhzhzjsbevs wrote: post #51
trashtester wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SWE's are not the only ones that think that their pay is low compared to their intelligence level, their education level, how tough, inconvenient or important their work is or what they feel they deserve for some other reason. For instance, I'm sure there are plenty of HR managers in various companies that are secretly furious about all the young young mostly males, mostly white or asian, still in their 20s, join the…

You're not wrong. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WkKHupWzB-g

Didn't that video make her lose her job?

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#99

Post by wes-k »

adriand wrote: post #81

I feel like the need to continuously learn new things is a feature of the profession, not a bug. It is certainly a difficult challenge, but I've always felt that the most important trait in a software developer is an eagerness to learn new things. I think the overall premise of the article makes sense, but where I differ from the writer is in how I view the need for constant learning and self-development. The author…

> the opportunity cost of working in a rapidly-changing field is highest for the best learners

It's not that learning is an unattractive aspect (I agree, it's a great feature!). Instead it's that it levels the playing field between those entering the profession and those that have been in it for many years. Yes, you still have "experience" as an advantage, but you can't say you've worked with LATEST_TECH for many more years than someone coming out of college.

Contrast that with other professions, like law, or medicine. Where it's not just "experience" working in your favor. But actual knowledge of the existing laws and medical practices.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#100

Post by sandoze »

tialaramex wrote: post #39
cs137 wrote: post #10

There isn't a shortage of software developers. The pay isn't great--the kids getting $300K packages out of Stanford are an exception; it's a marketing expense. In fact, if you control for the level of intelligence it takes to be any good, SWEs make less (and get far less autonomy--do you think lawyers work on Jira tickets?) than any other professional, and they hit a salary/challenge plateau quick... after which, the…

Many lawyers have to religiously time track everything. Because hours attributable to a specific client are billed and billable hours are where the revenue comes from.

No SWE has been audited for pointing their JIRA ticket too high.
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