Scotland starts renewed case for independence • Hacker News Board

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#491

Post by camjw » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 12:57 PM UTC

scott_w wrote: post #465

88 wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except the Supreme Court have said they will not consider an appeal. So it is not illegal.

They’re not ruling on legality, they’re refusing to grant injunctions on the flights. This doesn’t mean they’re legal, it means the courts won’t stop those individuals from being deported while the legal case for the policy is being argued. The decision to grant, or not, an injunction is not in itself a judgement on the underlying policy. The court did the former, not the latter.

What would it take to convince you that this policy is not illegal? (For clarity, I agree with you that it is an awful policy.)

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#492

Post by blackoil » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 12:59 PM UTC

bombcar wrote: post #308

zarzavat wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Scotland votes for independence should they hold a referendum every 4-5 years on rejoining the UK?

Sure, if they want to. UK should also feel free to say “eh nah” in that case.

Not so simple, UK will also have referendums on will they allow Scotland to join or kick them out. Also by nature of politics, the two referendums will not align so people would still be unhappy.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#493

Post by cygx » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 12:59 PM UTC

SilasX wrote: post #477

jpkeisala wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be very popular move for every EU politician to fast track Scotland to EU. But yes, it would be complicated to separate from UK and become independent. Becoming EU member would not be that complicated.

I thought the problem was that Spain wouldn’t like it because that would set a precedent of rewarding independence movements they oppose like for the Basque region?

Not necessarily if the separation is agreed upon by the UK central government: Madrid's main problem is a unilateral declaration of independence.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#494

Post by AshamedCaptain » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 1:00 PM UTC

brigandish wrote: post #208

AshamedCaptain wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Multiple european countries have referendums multiple times per year, on topics whose effects are much harder to undo (like education plans).

I can't say that many, including myself, would agree that education plans are on the same level as independence. But maybe I'm wrong. How often are independence referenda held in Europe?

> I can't say that many, including myself, would agree that education plans are on the same level as independence.

Perhaps not (your choice), but education plans definitely influence _at least_ a generation -- and they are changed almost on every change of legislative color without either a public vote or otherwise much fanfare.

This stuff eventually has a much more profound impact than independence (for starters, education plans can and do influence which % of the population is in favor of such independence; but they can also influence how much the culture diverges between the two "countries", e.g. by promoting regional languages). And this is just an example. Additional devolutions also have an impact that is at least on the same level, and again usually passes without much fanfare either.

> But maybe I'm wrong. How often are independence referenda held in Europe?

We had at least 2-3 last decade? And this entire thread is about another one...

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#495

Post by Wildgoose » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 1:03 PM UTC

cstross wrote: post #17

afavour wrote: post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

For non-UK people: There are four nations in the UK (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland). But England has roughly 90% of the population of the UK. So what England votes for in an all-nations referendum, the rest of the UK gets. England voted for Brexit by a narrow-ish majority. But Scotland voted against Brexit by a huge margin -- 62/38, or approximately 3:2. Ironically, the year before the Brexit referendum…

You missed out the part that Wales also voted for Brexit, (52.5% to 47.5%) and that England actually voted strongly for Brexit (53.6% to 46.4%) only to have that result diluted by Scotland and Northern Ireland. It was a UK-wide vote, not an individual nation vote.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#496

Post by closewith » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 1:03 PM UTC

iso1631 wrote: post #373

closewith wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All EU accession states are legally bound to join Schengen, with the exception of Ireland, which during the negotiations for the Treaty of Amsterdam received (along with the UK) an opt-out. No other nations have this opt-out.

Yet not all nations are in Schengen. If Scotland were allowed to join the EU (despite Spain's veto) I have no doubt there would be an acceptance that it could remain in the CTA with Ireland and the rest of UK

I'd have the opposite view. It seems unlikely that the bloc will ever provide opt-outs going forward given the difficulties they've caused to date.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#497

Post by hdjjhhvvhga » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 1:05 PM UTC

curiousgal wrote: post #315

k_sze wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

During the Brexit debacle, I joked with my Scottish ex-boss that, one day, Scotland will leave the UK, rejoin the EU, and then reabsorb the UK. And then the UK will be renamed United Kingdom of Scotland instead of United Kingdom of Great Britain. He laughed.

Will/Would the EU accept Scotland's membership though? What about the currency? It all seems so complicated

Currency is one of these aspects that are the least problematic here (many EU countries have their own currencies, and it was the same with the UK). What is more challenging is that becoming an independent country takes time, and if it happens, Scots will have their own challenges. Joining the EU will definitely possible, but I can't imagine it would be a quick process. Whereas if the UK changed their minds and decided to rejoin the EU, you could expect it could happen within 3 years or so.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#498

Post by MrMan » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 1:07 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #168

Jochim wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're also the Tory party of criminalising dissent, corruption, Russian influence, and offshoring refugees. The fact that homosexuality isn't as controversial as it once was doesn't preclude their authoritarian nature.

Are they pulling that “it’s zee Russians!” in the UK too? Seems to be a very popular bogeyman all over the Western world.

Brexit in UK and US exit from nato were both Russian propaganda projects.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#499

Post by mnw21cam » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 1:08 PM UTC

dale_glass wrote: post #213

mnw21cam wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason for the "once in a generation" promise is that it is widely recognised that holding regular referenda on non-reversible decisions biases in favour of the non-reversible option. Let's imagine for example that genuinely 55% of the population want to remain part of the UK, and so remaining should win given a completely fair and accurate measure of the population's mood. However, every measurement varies for a…

I think that's much better dealt with a greater than 50% majority requirement than with any kind of timing requirement. There's no reason to believe that a time requirement is a good protection against random politicians saying outrageous things. In fact it probably makes things worse because it gives obvious timelines for a campaign, so whenever the possibility opens up it pretty much guarantees all the outrageous p…

Yeah. The problem with requiring a greater than 50% majority is that politically the side that wants the change to happen will complain that it's unfair.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#500

Post by loriverkutya » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 1:08 PM UTC

ChrisKnott wrote: post #351

kmlx wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. i don't get this. to me, in 2022, all the countries of the UK are exactly the same. even Ireland in some aspects. same language, same history, more or less same laws. what's so special about Scotland, and what's their "different path" as compared to, let's say, Wales?

I don't know why this is downvoted. If Scotland becomes independent then Scotland and the UK will probably be the most similar countries in the world. When you are very close, small differences can seem much larger and more important than they really are.

Because it is factually incorrect. Scotland and England not sharing the same history as England invaded and occupied Scotland multiple times and I don’t think being invaded by a country and invading a country is a small difference. Also the languages spoken in Scotland are Gaelic, Scots and Scottish English.