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Scotland starts renewed case for independence

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Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#401

Post by dubeye »

petesergeant wrote: post #384
dubeye wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They need to be answered at some point, but not necessarily before the referendum. Not saying it's a best way to do it, but it's the most likely way. Brexit for example, was a referendum on a very broad question, the specifics were worked out afterwards. But most likely there will be a transition period, where monetary sovereignty is sacrificed in the short term, to allow central bank to be set up and votes held on v…

> They need to be answered at some point, but not necessarily before the referendum It would be well within Westminster's powers to say "sure, draw up a costed budget first and answer the big questions, get OBR sign-off, and we're good to go!"

It's also with westminsters powers to just ignore SNP requests for a ref.

But at some point, if UK wants to maintain it's pretence of being a defender of sovreignty and democracy, then it will need to allow scotland to hold a second referendum on terms of it's own devising. Not westminsters.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#402

Post by true_religion »

gambiting wrote: post #256
mantas wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Denmark's left-wing government is planning to send away asylum seekers too. It's interesting times when protecting borders from illegal immigration is seen as „far right“. It's not „far right“ rising, it's some people pushing Overton window extremely to the left. https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/denmark-talks-with-rwan...

I don't think even the most fundamental left leaning people are against sending illegal immigrants away - the problem is that UK is choosing to send people away to Rwanda, basically telling them that it's a safe African country, good luck there. Ministers have confirmed that yeah, it's "possible" that for instance Ukrainian refugees could be sent there if they didn't follow the right procedures and are deemed "illega…

What’s wrong with Rwanda?

From the point of view of Africans, we see this as a Rwanda led initiative to take care of refugees in a country that is safe, and in an environment that is closer to their homelands. Although in the past Rwanda has had is troubles but … so did Ireland and the UK on different scale. Rwanda of today is a different place, and the current president has long experience in handling refugee situations and defusing the natural tensions of people in a refugee crises.

Is it absolutely necessary for refugees to leave to go to a different continent, to live on an island where they will forever look like an “other” and have a culture and weather that is totally alien to them?

There should be more to this equation than the thought of sending people to the most prosperous country that they can.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#403

Post by Symbiote »

dubeye wrote: post #246
kmlx wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Scotland ends up paying for things like HS2 and other London centric. i find it hard to believe Scottish people don't travel outside of Scotland.

It's not about travel, it's about economic activity. HS2 will funnel economic activity from poorer regions into London. Great for London.

HS2 should reduce the journey time by train between Glasgow and Edinburgh to London by 49 and 31 minutes, respectively. That's decent, almost as much as the saving for Manchester (50m).

Edinburgh and Glasgow to London are the most common domestic flights in Britain. (Belfast does have more.)

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#404

Post by scott_w »

88 wrote: post #355
scott_w wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it hasn’t. The court ruled that there’s nothing in U.K. law that bars specific flights but they didn’t rule on the legality of the policy itself. This will be challenged at the court of appeal and will, eventually, be found a breach of international law.

So it’s illegal in your opinion but not in actual fact?

It’s normal for the high court to side with the government in these cases only for them to be overturned on appeal. That’s not my opinion, that’s the experience of immigration lawyers.

So yes, the policy is unlawful _in fact_ but the legal process needs to catch up to that.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#405

Post by fmajid »

atoav wrote: post #386
bennysomething wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking of being misled, we were pretty much promised by the Scottish nationalists that this was a once in a generation choice. Seems we voted wrong the last time so here we are again with all the uncertainty to go with it. Though right now I want the second referendum as it's probably the best way to end the uncertainty that SNP causing

I am an outsider on the topic, but wouldn't such a stark change of the political landscape as Brexit be a really valid reason to ask the question again? After all, independence before would have meant exiting the EU, while it now could mean re-entering it. Independence is ultimately the question about how a region wants to see itself in the world, and the alliances you are in are a big factor in that qestion.

Specially since Scots voted to remain in the EU by a wider margin than voted to remain in the UK.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#406

Post by 88 »

lucideer wrote: post #316
Veen wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While since 2017, England has increasingly drifted towards the far right. I suppose it depends on your definition of “far,” but from an English perspective this seems like nonsense.

This is called the Overton Window. It's typically the case for any system you are within, that the majority will consider the local "norm" to be moderate/centrist/etc. Looking at international politics, or even (perhaps more relevantly) the history of UK politics, modern UK politics is extremely far right. Labour is a very good example (considered by many within the UK to be left). They have been right-wing since the…

Corbyn self-identifies as a socialist.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#407

Post by Ekaros »

mattlondon wrote: post #260

I am happy for them to become independent, but I thought that last time this was a "once in a generation" type thing not a "every few years until we get the result we want"? It strikes me as unfair to just do another referendum again so soon (I think it was in 2014, so like what 8 years?). I think perhaps if they get one on Scottish independence, perhaps we should have a reverse-brexit referendum vote!

I think leaving an other very important economic and political union could reasonably well be seen as start of different generation. Or maybe they need to wait until Queen is dead, that should count and could even be arranged... Many other countries count their generations by whoever is the current monarch.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#408

Post by atlasunshrugged »

Jcowell wrote: post #342
DocTomoe wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because we have learned the US to be an unreliable partner and a source for most of our problems, several times now. It's time to stand on our own feet.

Can I get a source on this? From my shallow understanding of history. Europe is the source of Europe’s problems.

Most does sound like quite a stretch but to be fair the U.S. has certainly caused some regional issues (e.g. slowing growth by cutting off trade with Iran, electronic surveillance in Europe on allies, pushing EU countries to buy American arms instead of developing domestic industries, pushing for large beneficial trade deals like nuclear plants that benefit American companies). But yes, most does not seem fair either to the U.S. or to Europe which does have some agency.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#409

Post by andybak »

mantas wrote: post #354
andybak wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's some people pushing Overton window extremely to the left. Everyone that learns about the Overton window is immediately convinced the other side has been pulling it in their direction for years.

Are you trying to say that migration laws and practices and coverage in mass media didn't drift in certain direction compared to 20/40/60 years ago?

20? Probably not hugely. 40? Maybe in some aspects of policy. 60? Probably.

But you're talking about Denmark and I know nothing about Danish domestic policies - which is why I was intentionally broad in my wording.

The Overton window is poorly named. It's an irregularly shaped blob rather than a rectangular frame. Some things can move in different directions at different times.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#410

Post by scott_w »

mantas wrote: post #330
scott_w wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it’s refugees legally seeking help? This policy has nothing to do with illegal immigration.

Because nowadays vast majoritie of „refugees“ are not refugees in a classic sense. E.g. my country had thousands of „refugees“ hoping over border from Belarus last year. Last time I saw statistics, not even 1% was eligible for „refugee“ status. Even skipping the part that, according to international law, refugee is legit for the first safe country.

That last sentence is completely incorrect and is enough for me to safely disregard everything else you just said on the basis you don’t actually know what you’re talking about.
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