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Scotland starts renewed case for independence

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Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#371

Post by mschuster91 »

tut-urut-utut wrote: post #300
mschuster91 wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just imagine Ukraine allowing people in Donetsk and Lugansk to actually decide their status themselves, instead of using an army to force them into Ukraine. > Freedom of association is the basic human right, and no majorisation should be allowed to happen. Never. Russia has cleansed the occupied territories of ethnic Ukrainians pretty well over the last years since they took them over. Any form of "referendum" to a…

> Russia has cleansed the occupied territories of ethnic Ukrainians pretty well over the last years since they took them over. Any form of "referendum" to associate with Russia is nothing more than a plain land grab, a sham election. Without commenting your claims of supposed ethnic cleansing, I'd like to point out that such a referendum could've potentially been held before or after the Maidan coup in 2014. But sinc…

> I wish Spanish government reacted similar to British in case of Catalonia. Instead of helping to properly organize the referendum, they opted for using armed forces and criminalizing and arresting pro-independence supporters.

On that we agree. Spain knows they don't stand a chance in a fair and free separation referendum, which is why they went down the dirty route.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#372

Post by alablasters »

curiousgal wrote: post #315
k_sze wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

During the Brexit debacle, I joked with my Scottish ex-boss that, one day, Scotland will leave the UK, rejoin the EU, and then reabsorb the UK. And then the UK will be renamed United Kingdom of Scotland instead of United Kingdom of Great Britain. He laughed.

Will/Would the EU accept Scotland's membership though? What about the currency? It all seems so complicated

WRT currency having Scotland use Euro wouldnt be any different to how Northern Ireland uses Pounds and the Republic uses Euro

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#373

Post by iso1631 »

closewith wrote: post #221
rightbyte wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to join Schengen border cooperation.

All EU accession states are legally bound to join Schengen, with the exception of Ireland, which during the negotiations for the Treaty of Amsterdam received (along with the UK) an opt-out. No other nations have this opt-out.

Yet not all nations are in Schengen. If Scotland were allowed to join the EU (despite Spain's veto) I have no doubt there would be an acceptance that it could remain in the CTA with Ireland and the rest of UK

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#374

Post by petesergeant »

sideshowb wrote: post #107
physicsguy wrote: post #46

With hard headed view, I struggle to see that an independent Scotland will be economically able to deal with large cuts to public sector spending that would almost certainly be required. Per capita spending is already higher in Scotland than in the rest of the UK. Scottish companies have debts denominated in pounds. There would almost certainly be capital flight to rUK. Large businesses may relocate. There is no plan…

Doesn't the fact that Scotland owns the oil fields answer the economic problem, at least while everyone still wants oil? (not rhetorical, I haven't seen the numbers & I presume that's what TFA and its sequels aim to address, among other things).

The current situation is that the UK, not Scotland, owns the oil fields. A maritime boundary would need to be drawn and negotiated. If Westminster really wanted to stick the boot in, they could offer Shetland a vote on becoming a Crown Dependency first.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#375

Post by zarzavat »

dubeye wrote: post #280
swarnie wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some really basic questions will need to be answered. 1) What currecny are you using? 2) Where is your central bank? 3) What debt will you be departing with? 4) What cuts will be required when you can no longer take 32bn a year via the Barnett formula? Just simple, fundamental things really.

They need to be answered at some point, but not necessarily before the referendum. Not saying it's a best way to do it, but it's the most likely way. Brexit for example, was a referendum on a very broad question, the specifics were worked out afterwards. But most likely there will be a transition period, where monetary sovereignty is sacrificed in the short term, to allow central bank to be set up and votes held on v…

The aftermath of the Brexit referendum was horrendous precisely because there were several groups campaigning for mutually contradictory visions of Brexit.

A referendum whereby the nature of the thing being voted on is only explained afterwards is not democratic, it is merely an illusion of democracy.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#376

Post by tut-urut-utut »

ciphol wrote: post #294
tut-urut-utut wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always admired Brits for allowing people from Scotland (and maybe other parts) to actually vote and decide if they wanted to stay in the same country with them. If people all over the world had the same right, I suppose a lot of the wars could be avoided. Just imagine Ukraine allowing people in Donetsk and Lugansk to actually decide their status themselves, instead of using an army to force them into Ukraine. Selec…

I think the issue in Donetsk/Luhansk is actually the Russian army forcing them into Russia, against the wishes of most of the inhabitants [1]. BTW it's interesting you use the the Russian pronunciation "Lugansk" rather than the standard "Luhansk", it hints pretty strongly where your loyalties lie. [1] https://blog.politics.ox.ac.uk/most-people-in-separatist-hel...

> I think the issue in Donetsk/Luhansk is actually the Russian army forcing them into Russia, against the wishes of most of the inhabitants [1].

I would still trust an actual referendum held in 2014 than some random net article. Unfortunately, now it's too late for that, we have a bloody war and need to find a way out. And that was my whole point, referendums are good, and the British government is doing the right thing to allow them.

I write Lugansk since it was written like that when I learned it. Luhansk is a relatively recent transcription change. It's still written as Lugansk in most of the German and Polish media. French, Croatian, and Spanish name could also be the same.

Even in original Ukrainian, it is written as Луганськ, "г" being a Cyrillic "g" and not "h". As someone who can read Cyrillic, but neither Russian nor Ukrainian, I just tend to transcribe Cyrillic letters as is, instead to guess the right pronunciation.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#377

Post by rootusrootus »

dale_glass wrote: post #59
brigandish wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Brit who voted for Scottish independence last time, against the wishes of many of my family and those around me, if this happens again then I'll vote against the SNP's wishes. They said it was a once in generation vote. I made my case, as did everyone else, we all had the chance to vote on it, and my side lost. Democratic votes need the consent of the loser, not I didn't get my way so let's have another vote . B…

That's silly. I have no dog in this fight, but people are allowed to change their opinion, especially as circumstances change. If what your choice was based on changed, then it's perfectly logical for your choice to change in response. Holding up to "once in a generation" promises is stupid, though so was making such a claim to start with.

> Holding up to "once in a generation" promises is stupid, though so was making such a claim to start with.

It's not a bad way to try and skip a generation that seems to be skewing left, however, and keep power in the hands of the boomer generation. "Sorry, kids, I know you weren't old enough to vote for this before, but we agreed that we wouldn't do it again for a generation."

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#378

Post by iso1631 »

Emma_Goldman wrote: post #144
dataengineer56 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scotland wouldn't meet the criteria to join the EU - it's far too poor and small by itself. Exiting the UK would just isolate them more.

The formal criteria are that a country is a stable market democracy, other than that accession is really a political matter (see Ukraine and Turkey). Clearly there would be a groundswell of support for incorporating a Scotland fleeing from Brexitland. It would be a coup for the EU.

Spain won't like a "breakaway province" joining the EU - they hate self determination for places like Catalonia and Gibraltar.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#379

Post by Cederfjard »

madeofpalk wrote: post #69
Angostura wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As another Brit, a Londoner, who didn't want Scotland to go. 1. Because I enjoy living in a country that has the Scots in it - without Scotland the country would be diminished, less interesting and more insular. 2. Generally, I think fracturing is a bad thing. I wanted to stay in the EU for similar reasons. This isn't to say that I don't think that Scots should have self determination, just that I would be sad if the…

Well, I have always joked that Sydney should just succeed and become it's own city-state...

You probably mean secede, but it’s nice of you to wish them well!

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#380

Post by dubeye »

swarnie wrote: post #305
dubeye wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They need to be answered at some point, but not necessarily before the referendum. Not saying it's a best way to do it, but it's the most likely way. Brexit for example, was a referendum on a very broad question, the specifics were worked out afterwards. But most likely there will be a transition period, where monetary sovereignty is sacrificed in the short term, to allow central bank to be set up and votes held on v…

> Vote for this! > What is it? > We dont know yet! Doesn't seem like a brilliant idea from where i'm sat. I think the comparison to Brexit will come up a lot, arguing for a similar process with six years of hindsight is... questionable....

That's politics for you. Brilliant ideas rarely crop up.
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