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Scotland starts renewed case for independence

gov.scot

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Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#311

Post by dijit »

Veen wrote: post #286
cstross wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For non-UK people: There are four nations in the UK (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland). But England has roughly 90% of the population of the UK. So what England votes for in an all-nations referendum, the rest of the UK gets. England voted for Brexit by a narrow-ish majority. But Scotland voted against Brexit by a huge margin -- 62/38, or approximately 3:2. Ironically, the year before the Brexit referendum…

> While since 2017, England has increasingly drifted towards the far right. I suppose it depends on your definition of “far,” but from an English perspective this seems like nonsense.

Conservatives have been drifting right to absorb UKIP, so while you're not technically wrong that England has edged closer to the far right, the reality is that the government is more right leaning than ever.

I dare say even leaning towards fascism the way that they're rewriting rules to protect big dog.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#312

Post by brigandish »

sofixa wrote: post #243
brigandish wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone can claim the situation has changed, every year. Life does not go backwards. I'm still not clear why that means "once in a generation" becomes "as soon as I can get what I want". > > a third of those voting for independence also want(ed) independence from the EU > Which means two third, the majority, voted for the EU? Seems like a legit reason for a new vote. Has that figure changed dramatically? Even if it ha…

> Anyone can claim the situation has changed, every year. Life does not go backwards. I'm still not clear why that means "once in a generation" becomes "as soon as I can get what I want". So for you Brexit, a harder one than what anyone campaigned for ( the hardest one i recall hearing about was "Norway-style"), isn't a change ?

Perhaps I could've been clearer. There will always be changes, hence, anyone who wishes to claim there's been a change can.

That doesn't obviate "once in a generation", does it? Perhaps they should've been clearer and said "once in a generation, and if the UK has a referendum on EU membership and we decide to leave, and if…"

It would've been more honest, at least.

I'll also note, you're right that the vast majority of leave proponents wanted a Norway-style deal, it was remainers who presented this form as part of their machinations to try and wangle the UK staying in. Don't blame anyone else for that.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#313

Post by ericmay »

happy_path wrote: post #101
eyko wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scotland can be independent _and_ be in the same economic market (ignoring UK and Spain willing to veto Scotland reentering EU out of spite / own political motives).

Spain will only veto Scotland if the independence is not agreed between the UK and Scotland (in the same spirit of Spain's opinion of Kosovo independence). Spain parliament is against unilateral declarations of independence.

> Spain parliament is against unilateral declarations of independence.

Very convenient of them isn’t it?

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#314

Post by bradleyjg »

sideshowb wrote: post #107
physicsguy wrote: post #46

With hard headed view, I struggle to see that an independent Scotland will be economically able to deal with large cuts to public sector spending that would almost certainly be required. Per capita spending is already higher in Scotland than in the rest of the UK. Scottish companies have debts denominated in pounds. There would almost certainly be capital flight to rUK. Large businesses may relocate. There is no plan…

Doesn't the fact that Scotland owns the oil fields answer the economic problem, at least while everyone still wants oil? (not rhetorical, I haven't seen the numbers & I presume that's what TFA and its sequels aim to address, among other things).

My understanding is they’ve peaked and are declining.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#315

Post by curiousgal »

k_sze wrote: post #276
cstross wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For non-UK people: There are four nations in the UK (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland). But England has roughly 90% of the population of the UK. So what England votes for in an all-nations referendum, the rest of the UK gets. England voted for Brexit by a narrow-ish majority. But Scotland voted against Brexit by a huge margin -- 62/38, or approximately 3:2. Ironically, the year before the Brexit referendum…

During the Brexit debacle, I joked with my Scottish ex-boss that, one day, Scotland will leave the UK, rejoin the EU, and then reabsorb the UK. And then the UK will be renamed United Kingdom of Scotland instead of United Kingdom of Great Britain. He laughed.

Will/Would the EU accept Scotland's membership though? What about the currency? It all seems so complicated

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#316

Post by lucideer »

Veen wrote: post #286
cstross wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For non-UK people: There are four nations in the UK (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland). But England has roughly 90% of the population of the UK. So what England votes for in an all-nations referendum, the rest of the UK gets. England voted for Brexit by a narrow-ish majority. But Scotland voted against Brexit by a huge margin -- 62/38, or approximately 3:2. Ironically, the year before the Brexit referendum…

> While since 2017, England has increasingly drifted towards the far right. I suppose it depends on your definition of “far,” but from an English perspective this seems like nonsense.

This is called the Overton Window. It's typically the case for any system you are within, that the majority will consider the local "norm" to be moderate/centrist/etc.

Looking at international politics, or even (perhaps more relevantly) the history of UK politics, modern UK politics is extremely far right. Labour is a very good example (considered by many within the UK to be left). They have been right-wing since the "New Labour / Blairite" movement (verifiable either by comparing their policies to pre-Blair Labour, or to international socially democratic contemporaries). A similar example is the UK media coverage of Corbyn: his political views - which align very well with the Labour party historically & with international socially democratic parties - were portrayed as being communist/socialist. Corbyn's political ideologies never varied over the decades of his career, nor became more extremely left; rather modern UK discourse moved right, placing him left of the "new centre".

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#317

Post by capableweb »

mattlondon wrote: post #260

I am happy for them to become independent, but I thought that last time this was a "once in a generation" type thing not a "every few years until we get the result we want"? It strikes me as unfair to just do another referendum again so soon (I think it was in 2014, so like what 8 years?). I think perhaps if they get one on Scottish independence, perhaps we should have a reverse-brexit referendum vote!

I think the "once in a generation" statement was based on how things currently are at the time. So, if there wasn't any drastic changes to the entire political and economical landscape in those 8 years, then there wouldn't be another vote.

But since there been at least one major shift in the very country Scotland exists in, I think it's fair to reassess how people feel about independence via a referendum.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#318

Post by ben_w »

mantas wrote: post #231
scott_w wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our Home Secretary has just instituted an illegal policy of deporting African and Asian refugees to Rwanda. Irrespective of the colour of her skin, her actions are those of the far right.

Since when is dealing with illegal migration under coverage of refugees „far right“?

As I understand it — IANAL — the asylum seekers which the UK is sending to Rwanda, are actually allowed under international law (i.e. treaties the UK has signed) to seek asylum in the UK.

Rwanda in particular is an odd choice if you are genuinely concerned about the well-being of people who are fleeing persecution, given the UK government travel advice for its own citizens.

It is also a very expensive choice (about the cost of giving them free food and accommodation in an average bit of Hull for over 2 years); but even in its own terms, it does not appear to have changed, nor is it likely in the future to change, the minds of the extremely small number of asylum seekers who have not been put off the UK by virtue of it being a damp sheep-filled rock in the North Atlantic where they will be banned by law from seeking employment.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#319

Post by brigandish »

emptyfile wrote: post #182
brigandish wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone can claim the situation has changed, every year. Life does not go backwards. I'm still not clear why that means "once in a generation" becomes "as soon as I can get what I want". > > a third of those voting for independence also want(ed) independence from the EU > Which means two third, the majority, voted for the EU? Seems like a legit reason for a new vote. Has that figure changed dramatically? Even if it ha…

>I'm still not clear why that means "once in a generation" becomes "as soon as I can get what I want". Because Brexit, duh?

Please explain more, you clearly have some assumptions that I do not share.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#320

Post by scott_w »

Veen wrote: post #301
scott_w wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Truss is moving to break a treaty to appease the far right nutters in her party. Javid, as Home Secretary, stripped a teenager of her British citizenship, leaving her stateless and stranded somewhere in Iraq or Syria.

The teenager is a terrorist sympathiser who left the UK to join Isis. And she isn’t a teenager any more.

Irrespective of what she may or may not have done, her citizenship was stripped on flimsy legal pretexts to satisfy their racist supporters.
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