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Scotland starts renewed case for independence

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Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#161

Post by SunlightEdge »

orra wrote: post #27
afavour wrote: post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

> …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah? As you know, UK asylum policy is horrific at the moment. The UK is sending asylum seekers to Rwanda, copying Australia's repugnant offshore policy. I hope we (Scotland) do better. In 2014, the independence white paper had a points based immigration policy. I want a much more open immigration policy this time round. Scotland is enriched by migra…

There is a difference between asylum seekers and skilled migrants (the latter is what every country wants, the former is where all the political heat is on).

On asylum seekers, in reality, the plan to move some asylum seekers to Rwanda won't work - its too expensive, legally dubious, and lawyers/charities will fight it tooth and nail. Its more of a political stunt and won't really do anything.

Up to now, the UK is very ineffective at removing asylum seekers. Overall, its incredibly expensive to remove asylum seekers from the UK and even when this occurs often lawyers/charities continue to fight for them to be returned to the UK. The UK, also doesn't require ID cards, uses English, and 'still' has a very strong economy all of which are massive pull factors for 'asylum seekers'. When you look at the numbers of children from ethnic minorities in the UK its pretty astounding - we are going to see huge changes in the demographic in the next 100 years (note: that's ok, but its ok to be honest).

The only thing that 'may' have made a slight difference is ironically Brexit. Yes it looks like a disaster, but before Brexit lots of asylum seekers that claimed asylum in mainland Europe when they received permission to stay immediately moved to the UK for work opportunities (I don't blame them). But then again this may not work as Brexit has been such a disaster the UK really needs more workers to come and work in the UK.

Note: I am neutral on 'asylum seekers' in the UK. Its a massive political hot potato and generally avoid all newspapers views on them - but the left and right newspapers are both pretty bad at talking about all this in an honest way.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#162

Post by eyko »

brigandish wrote: post #68
synu wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not British or Scottish and have no skin in the game, but what is the harm in revoting if things seem to have changed? Either things didn’t change and everyone votes the same anyway, in which case it was a waste of time but reconfirms the status quo, or things actually are different and then you know and can act on it. Is there a special history or feature in UK democracy where things are only ever voted on one…

How often do you think independence referenda should be held?

How often do you think the entire government of a state should change? Some would argue every 4-5 years makes it impossible to have politicians with long term thinking. Why not have elections once every generation?

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#163

Post by veltas »

aerique wrote: post #147
veltas wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Scottish leave voters hadn't turned out then the referendum would have resulted in "remain". So it's interesting to say in that context that "Scotland voted to remain" as many people simplify it to. 3:2 is a big margin and it's meaningful, but it doesn't define Scots.

And if Scottish "remain" voters hadn't turned out?

...no difference to the result, but big difference to the interpretation (as it would be for leavers not turning out). My point is just that Scotland isn't one person, there were plenty of leavers there.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#164

Post by mhh__ »

everfrustrated wrote: post #66
orra wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah? As you know, UK asylum policy is horrific at the moment. The UK is sending asylum seekers to Rwanda, copying Australia's repugnant offshore policy. I hope we (Scotland) do better. In 2014, the independence white paper had a points based immigration policy. I want a much more open immigration policy this time round. Scotland is enriched by migra…

There is a big difference between people legally arriving under a points system and people rowing themselves over to live illegally.

This kind of difference is exactly what the home office are trying so hard to manipulate. There is no such thing as a refugee if you listen to the way the home office speak.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#165

Post by Emma_Goldman »

Gordonjcp wrote: post #137
Emma_Goldman wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Scotland is a part of the United Kingdom and their secession is therefore of great consequence for the rest of the union - how is that not obvious? I live in Scotland FYI. I am undecided on independence, but clearly part of the calculus is how it effects matters of concern to the rest of the UK. Consider what is to me, the following con and pro: (1) Scotland is more left-wing than the rest of the UK and its s…

> (1) Scotland is more left-wing than the rest of the UK and its secession would condemn the rest of the union to indefinite right-wing government. Scotland's voters cannot influence the vote in England, under any circumstances. If you want rid of the Tories, you have to teach England not to vote for the Tories.

I have no idea what you are talking about. In the UK general election citizens of all realms of the UK vote, meaning that Scotland being more left-wing has led to comparatively more left-wing UK governments than would be the case in its absence. So 'if you want rid of the Tories', Scotland is a great asset.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#166

Post by iso1631 »

tupac_speedrap wrote: post #135

I love the non-Scottish people coming out of the woodwork trying to be experts on British politics. The SNP threaten to leave all the time, they lost the last vote by a landslide but they basically have to keep the threat alive to keep the money and powers coming from Westminster. The SNP also mismanages many Scottish councils and there is far amount of sleaze associated with their members but it's "our sleaze" and n…

The last vote was 55-45, that's not a landslide.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#167

Post by hardlianotion »

dale_glass wrote: post #59
brigandish wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Brit who voted for Scottish independence last time, against the wishes of many of my family and those around me, if this happens again then I'll vote against the SNP's wishes. They said it was a once in generation vote. I made my case, as did everyone else, we all had the chance to vote on it, and my side lost. Democratic votes need the consent of the loser, not I didn't get my way so let's have another vote . B…

That's silly. I have no dog in this fight, but people are allowed to change their opinion, especially as circumstances change. If what your choice was based on changed, then it's perfectly logical for your choice to change in response. Holding up to "once in a generation" promises is stupid, though so was making such a claim to start with.

Referenda that have a profound impact on your system of government should be rare. There is an impact on both economies in terms of investment and planning. They should be offered in a once in a generation basis.

Many (most?) countries have constitutions that forbid splitting up the country. UK is pretty unusual in providing for a referendum of the type that happened in 2014.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#168

Post by refurb »

Jochim wrote: post #126
dankboys wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Tory party of higher taxes, pride flags covering every government social media account and currently minting coins with the "progressive pride" flag? Sounds like they're about to burn down the Reichstag.

They're also the Tory party of criminalising dissent, corruption, Russian influence, and offshoring refugees. The fact that homosexuality isn't as controversial as it once was doesn't preclude their authoritarian nature.

Are they pulling that “it’s zee Russians!” in the UK too? Seems to be a very popular bogeyman all over the Western world.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#169

Post by krona »

cstross wrote: post #51
smcl wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps the fringe far-right parties have all but disintegrated, but the Tories have certainly drifted rightward and they're essentially untouchable in England in spite of ... well, everything

That's my point. UKIP and BXP disintegrated because their more competent members colonized the Conservative Party, which is now much more radical and far-right than it was under Cameron. The only surviving cabinet minister from Cameron's era (2010-2016) is Michael Gove. The rest are all new faces with far right credentials and a commitment to the hardest of hard Brexits.

> The rest are all new faces with far right credentials

What does that even mean? That anyone who wasn't a member of the SWP in their youth is automatically a closet fascist?

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#170

Post by iso1631 »

alignItems wrote: post #102

I don’t get how the Scottish independence movement can be anti-Brexit, which was about the UK wanting more independence and self-governance. If that’s what they’re after, why would they want to join the EU after leaving the UK?

Brexit was nothing about the UK wanting more independence and self governance.
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