EU vote to ban all sales of combustion engine vehicles by 2035 • Hacker News Board

Re: EU vote to ban all sales of combustion engine vehicles by 2035

#231

Post by koonsolo » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 7:10 AM UTC

adrianN wrote: post #227

koonsolo wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Belgium, and at least here that's not true at all. People drive to the south during holidays. South of France, Spain, Italy, ... . And people from the Netherlands do even bigger distances than that, mostly with their camper. And when they don't drive, guess what we/they use: not trains, airplanes. Ryanair is really cheap on some flights. For myself, my wife is from Slovakia, so every year I drive at least o…

You can also do that trip in an electric car in a day. That's at least a 12 hour drive. Stopping at a charger for fifteen minutes can be done as part of the breaks you need to take anyway to drive safely and doesn't increase you travelime meaningfully.

I hope the ranges will still drastically increase. I need a big car, and I was already looking at the Mercedes EQV. It currently has an official range of 363 km. So that would mean 4 stops. But I have no idea how much you can charge in 15 minutes. During lunch I could probably do 30 minutes.

Re: EU vote to ban all sales of combustion engine vehicles by 2035

#232

Post by adrianN » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 7:22 AM UTC

koonsolo wrote: post #231

adrianN wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can also do that trip in an electric car in a day. That's at least a 12 hour drive. Stopping at a charger for fifteen minutes can be done as part of the breaks you need to take anyway to drive safely and doesn't increase you travelime meaningfully.

I hope the ranges will still drastically increase. I need a big car, and I was already looking at the Mercedes EQV. It currently has an official range of 363 km. So that would mean 4 stops. But I have no idea how much you can charge in 15 minutes. During lunch I could probably do 30 minutes.

If you start full and arrive nearly empty you need to charge about 900km. The EQV charges at 5-7km/min@110kW so you need to charge for two to three hours during your trip. So you'd need only slightly longer than in a fossil car if you take the recommended ten minute breaks every hour of driving. (Given the charger network is sufficiently dense, which it currently isn't I suppose). There are already cars that charge at higher rates than 110kW. Teslas for example charge around 300km range in fifteen minutes at a supercharger.

Re: EU vote to ban all sales of combustion engine vehicles by 2035

#233

Post by jhgb » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 7:46 AM UTC

LargoLasskhyfv wrote: post #230

jhgb wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What do you think is going to be the overhead of the conversion rate to electricity, electricity transportation ? Well, for example transformers are ~98% efficient, AC lines lose around 7% per 1000 km. So with three transformers between you and the power plant and a ~300 km distance, you lose around 8% between the power plant and you. > Because if it is another 50% you lost all interest (but you built a plant and a…

> Well, for example transformers are ~98% efficient, AC lines lose around 7% per 1000 km. So with three transformers between you and the power plant and a ~300 km distance, you lose around 8% between the power plant and you. That's not how it works because it's assuming a point to point connection for your use case. In reality there is the grid , and from everything I know transmission losses from whichever source to…

Can me give you an example of such cases? Because where I live, the grid absolutely does not suffer such horrible losses. "50% best case" would be absolutely unthinkable here -- especially for purpose-built medium-voltage systems like electrical rail.

Re: EU vote to ban all sales of combustion engine vehicles by 2035

#234

Post by revertmean » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 8:13 AM UTC

me_me_me wrote: post #194

crote wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The literal last mile is the easiest part, actually. Electric trucks with a range of 300km are already widely available, and that's more than enough for local use. Besides, in Europe there are pretty stringent rules about driving times already. You need to take a 45-minute break every 4.5 hours, which at 90 kmh is every 400 km. You can split that into a 15-minute break and a 30-minute one, requiring an even shorter r…

> Electric trucks with a range of 300km I have to do it, but citation is needed. A quick googling and all i see is announcements of future truck. Tesla truck that are more cost efficient than trains available as early as 2018 are almost ready for 'production. > The way I see it, the truck isn't the problem: building the charging infrastructure is. Hmmmm, I wonder if you could rephrase that... 'You need to fund ground…

> I have to do it, but citation is needed

Volvo have been selling electric trucks for over 2 years now: https://www.volvotrucks.co.uk/en-gb/trucks/alternative-fuels...

Re: EU vote to ban all sales of combustion engine vehicles by 2035

#235

Post by IanCal » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 8:27 AM UTC

ciupicri wrote: post #171

neallindsay wrote: post #73

I'm seeing a lot of skepticism in the comments here, but electric cars are already superior to their combustion-driven ancestors in most ways. People want to buy them. (Sales are already limited by how fast car makers can increase manufacturing capacity.) What this will do is mostly limit how long car makers can milk their gas/diesel engine making capability.

People want to buy them, but can they afford them?

Yes, rates of purchase are quite high. Incentive schemes in the UK that make leasing very appealing mean people are getting electric company cars, this should then bleed into the second hand car market.

Re: EU vote to ban all sales of combustion engine vehicles by 2035

#236

Post by IanCal » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 8:47 AM UTC

notimetorelax wrote: post #78

dgellow wrote: post #64

If you have a combustion engine and want to change to electric, who will buy it from you? Or how do you get rid of your old car? There will be basically no demand in Europe. Just wondering what will happen to all these existing cars, it’s nice to know new cars will be electric but what are people supposed to do with their current ones? Lot of them won’t be usable in cities due to low-emission zoning policies. Edit: i…

I assume people will sell theirs for export to the countries outside of EU. Having bought a new car last year with internal combustion - I'm OK to lose a few thousands by 2035 if this means that there are no more internal combustion cars in use. The primary reason I bought non-electric car is insufficient infrastructure, bills like this will fix the infrastructure problem. Edit: to answer the question in the edit. 13…

It's only a ban on the sale of new cars.

Re: EU vote to ban all sales of combustion engine vehicles by 2035

#237

Post by arez » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 10:32 AM UTC

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #203

arez wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

first you say there was no agreement and then you say there was a sharing agreement, how does this fit together? Also germany needs some cheap labor but manufacturing isn't the main part, manufacturing is actually quiet expensive due to strong unions in germany especially in car manufacturing etc. and yes, brexit happened also because of these things, but as you can see now, letting foreigners in doesn't need to be b…

> manufacturing is actually quiet expensive due to strong unions in germany especially in car manufacturing etc. Except that not all industries are unionized so workers' exploitation is rampant, especially in low margin, low wage industries like fruit and vegetable picking, meat, hospitality, etc. where most of the migrant workers end up. The exploitation of migrants during Covid was even documented on DW. Through wo…

Q.E.D, lol :D manufacturing vegetables and meat? I'm talking about cars, screws, machine. Nobody manufactures vegetables or meat :D but you mean packaging, ok, but germany is not big in that either, that's only some but mostly for the domestic market

Re: EU vote to ban all sales of combustion engine vehicles by 2035

#238

Post by LargoLasskhyfv » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 10:49 AM UTC

jhgb wrote: post #233

LargoLasskhyfv wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, for example transformers are ~98% efficient, AC lines lose around 7% per 1000 km. So with three transformers between you and the power plant and a ~300 km distance, you lose around 8% between the power plant and you. That's not how it works because it's assuming a point to point connection for your use case. In reality there is the grid , and from everything I know transmission losses from whichever source to…

Can me give you an example of such cases? Because where I live, the grid absolutely does not suffer such horrible losses. "50% best case" would be absolutely unthinkable here -- especially for purpose-built medium-voltage systems like electrical rail.

Since this isn't my area of expertise, no, I didn't bookmark them. Just looked into it repeatedly since the beginning of our transformation to renewable and sustainable energy here, since about 2008. I thought the same regarding losses and grid, but it seems like it is so with current technology.

I live (mostly) in Germany. But as I've said, when you zoom out and look into it, considering all that goes through and into it, it seems like it.

No matter where. ISTR tidbits from documentaries, many websites specializing in analysis, even wikipedia. Especially that rail thing, only one third from power plant reaching the locomotive is normal.

Let's put it this way: You have a model for your use case, a (mind) map. But the map is not the territory :-)

Re: EU vote to ban all sales of combustion engine vehicles by 2035

#239

Post by JulianMorrison » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:49 AM UTC

bambax wrote: post #125

mateo1 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A petrol stations running costs are very low. They break even with 2% margins. Even if they go away, a 2m^3 tank at home will last you for a year or more. And if your typical full tank range of 500-600km is not enough, you can toss a few fuel cans in the trunk and travel across the continent without refueling. The only way ICEs will go away is by hostile legislation, being regulated and taxed to death purely for ideo…

> a 2m^3 tank at home Err, what? I'm in Paris, I can't drill that kind of hole anywhere near my home. The article is about the EU; but I doubt most people can do that even in the US, except when you have a house in the middle of nowhere with lots of land around it.

Not to mention: huge underground tanks of gasoline are a fire and explosion hazard. They are an environmental hazard if they leak or spill. They require building to safety codes. They require trained and skilled operation. They need to be to insured.

Re: EU vote to ban all sales of combustion engine vehicles by 2035

#240

Post by jhgb » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 12:18 PM UTC

LargoLasskhyfv wrote: post #238

jhgb wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can me give you an example of such cases? Because where I live, the grid absolutely does not suffer such horrible losses. "50% best case" would be absolutely unthinkable here -- especially for purpose-built medium-voltage systems like electrical rail.

Since this isn't my area of expertise, no, I didn't bookmark them. Just looked into it repeatedly since the beginning of our transformation to renewable and sustainable energy here, since about 2008. I thought the same regarding losses and grid, but it seems like it is so with current technology. I live (mostly) in Germany. But as I've said, when you zoom out and look into it, considering all that goes through and in…

> Especially that rail thing, only one third from power plant reaching the locomotive is normal.

Link please. Because that would be a terrible performance figure for a high power system like that. Worst possible loss figures I've been able to find for our grid are 15% losses between the power plant and the plug, and that's including the losses in low-voltage distribution (400 V 50 Hz three-phase). Modern rail runs at 25 kV/50 Hz single-phase. 66% losses would be mind-boggling. As per [1], the expected losses for powering 25 kV rail are around 7% including conversion between transmission lines and the traction lines. So even including losses between the power plant and the conversion substation, they should definitely be significantly below 20%.

[1] https://vts.cd.cz/documents/168518/195369/3201.pdf/9a95e429-...