Live data from Hacker News

What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

blogs.plos.org

41–50 of 69 posts

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#41
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Wasn't he defying that philosophy, she asked, by making computers and other products that people coveted?" Buddhism expresses a distinction between a thing in and of itself and an individual's interpretation of a thing . "Computers and other products" are simply things in and of themselves. However, it is the individual that applies an interpretation to these things, such that the individual can allow these things t…

"Wasn't he defying that philosophy, she asked, by making computers and other products that people coveted?" Just to add to this, buddhism actually has the idea of "right livelihood" which is one part of the noble 8-fold path. The 'wrong' livelihoods are enumerated: Business in weapons, human beings, meat, intoxicants and poison. essentially things that do physical harm to other life. Attachment is all around us, not…

>It is no particular "sin" for Jobs to make a livelihood selling things people want //

The success is that people don't want things, you make them want them and then you sell them and then you make them feel that what you sold them wasn't quite as good as they thought. Then you can sell them the same idea that they're unfulfilled but will be completed by your latest product.

Manufacture of cutting edge gadgetry has long involved dealing in intoxicants and people; mostly manufacturing without care for harms to the environment and those living in the areas that are harmed. Dealing in people as near worthless entities to be dismissed as simply a cog in the machine that makes the machines that you sell to become a better capitalist.

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#42
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Computers and other products" are simply things in and of themselves. However, it is the individual that applies an interpretation to these things, such that the individual can allow these things to define him or her. It is also an individual who devotes his life towards working on ever more desirable consumer products, and also individuals who devise and support ad & PR campaigns based on the idea of defining one…

> The reference was to the moralizing; for all you wrote, I still see tension between a stance based on eliminating cravings and a life spent stoking and satisfying for cash cravings. It seems as though that tension arises in you simply imposing your misunderstandings of what Buddhism seeks to do in eliminating worldly desires, though. Buddhism fundamentally offers the proposition "if you are dissatisfied with life,…

So you're saying Buddhism as you see it teaches you to screw other people over (cause them to become more attached to material things) in order to benefit yourself at their expense? It's not that Apple is about selling things that people might form attachments too - that's the business model, to make people become attached to them in order to continue to sell to them.

That doesn't mesh with the, admittedly very limited, reading/experience of Buddhism I've had.

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#43
post #32

So he was an atheist. It would come as a shock to a number of Apple fanboys in the US. Edit : so downvoters think a buddhist is not an atheist ? or that it would not shock anyone in the US ? or what ?

I don't know why people have downvoted you but ... Buddhism doesn't contradict there being a deity and some Buddhists worship figures as if they were gods and certainly consider some to have supernatural powers.

So it would seem based on the story here that you've not a strong starting point. Perhaps he was a deist/agnostic/atheist/apatheist I don't know or particularly care.

As to your second assertion, how is it relevant to peoples regard for the devices/software he was party to? How is that line of enquiry pertinent to HN?

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#44
Wow there is a lot of misinformation here, especially about Zen.

If making beautiful things is encouraging attachment then I guess all of the Zen poets and painters weren't (and aren't) very Zen either. Nor are the architects, florists or writers.

And to say that he wasn't or couldn't be a Buddhist simply because he had imperfections and flaws? What?!

Also, look up Vimalakirti. You don't need to renounce the world and material possessions to be a 'good' Buddhist, whatever that is.

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#45
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Wasn't he defying that philosophy, she asked, by making computers and other products that people coveted?" Buddhism expresses a distinction between a thing in and of itself and an individual's interpretation of a thing . "Computers and other products" are simply things in and of themselves. However, it is the individual that applies an interpretation to these things, such that the individual can allow these things t…

Err, there isn't just "the thing" but a dedicated and directed marketing program to make you absolutely covet the product. Everything about capitalism, marketing, and advertising is about making us covet things so we buy them. Sorry, but there's no easy cop-out here. 99.9% of what Jobs did was marketing and its even more important than the product, imho.

Apple has made a business selling smartphones to people who covet them.

Guinness made a business selling beers to people who covet them.

Marlboro made a business selling cigarettes to people who covet them.

Smith and Wesson made a business selling guns to people who covet them.

No one needs an iPhone. No one needs a beer, or a cigarette, or a gun. People want them, and some people covet them.

You're not doing harm when you're selling a gun to a farmer who want to stop coyotes killing his hens. You're not doing harm when you sell a smartphone to a businessman to make his life and job easier, or more productive. You aren't doing harm selling a beer to a guy who drinks every other saturday night, and not when the kids are out and you might have to drive. You aren't doing harm when you sell a cigar to a guy who smokes one every new years.

You are doing harm when you sell a iphone or an ipod to someone living in poverty, because they don't want to look different from their coworkers or friends. You are doing harm when you sell a gun to an 18 year old in Detroit who's going to use it to rob a convenience store. You are doing harm when you sell a pack of cigarettes to a chain smoker. You are doing harm when you sell a bottle of vodka to an alcoholic.

It's easy to say Steve Jobs is 'evil' because he made people covet iPhones. But I don't covet iPhones, or iPods. I think he marketed them excellent, but he didn't make me buy one when I couldn't/shouldn't or didn't want to. I drink two beers maybe one night in a month. I've gone through half a pack of cigarillo's in a year and a half.

I don't blame tobacco companies because smokers wan't to smoke. I don't blame distilleries because alcoholics want to drink. I don't blame Blizzard because Warcrafters want to WoW. Just like I don't blame Gillette because people want to shave every morning.

If you covet something just because someone marketed it, then you've got something really wrong with you.

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#46
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your point? Buddhism is not Christianity. It does not assert that it is the One True Path, and that it's teachings are the One Size Fits All solution to everybody's problems. It does not follow that what Buddhism teaches is bad for Buddhists (attachment to objects) is therefore bad for everybody, and that if you market something that someone may allow themselves to form attachments to, you have therefore harme…

So if Buddhism does not assert that it is the One True Path, what's the Fourth Noble Truth? In America, Buddhism tends to be portrayed in this sort of light: basically, that Buddhism makes no exclusivist truth claims. But for a Mahayana Buddhist to make the Bodhisattva Vow in the context of the Four Noble Truths necessarily entails teaching others about certain things which are True, to the exclusion of things which…

Buddhism may assert that there is a true path. The difference between it, and many other religions, is that you don't have to be Buddhist to walk the eightfold path.

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#47
post #3

Not much of one. I read the bio too, and got a different picture - Jobs used Buddhism because he had such problems. We'll probably never know what problems specifically, just like we'll never know what his eating issues were (Isaacson says Jobs was urged to see a therapist about it, but refused) - narcissism as one woman speculated? Bi-polar? To me, the most insightful anecdote was: > 'Our consumer desires are unheal…

zen buddhism could have been a treatment program for this dude ,

as the character was not the most loved one among his employees, competitors etc. , needed some improvements

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reference was to the moralizing; for all you wrote, I still see tension between a stance based on eliminating cravings and a life spent stoking and satisfying for cash cravings. It seems as though that tension arises in you simply imposing your misunderstandings of what Buddhism seeks to do in eliminating worldly desires, though. Buddhism fundamentally offers the proposition "if you are dissatisfied with life,…

So you're saying Buddhism as you see it teaches you to screw other people over (cause them to become more attached to material things) in order to benefit yourself at their expense? It's not that Apple is about selling things that people might form attachments too - that's the business model, to make people become attached to them in order to continue to sell to them. That doesn't mesh with the, admittedly very limit…

> So you're saying Buddhism as you see it teaches you to screw other people over (cause them to become more attached to material things) in order to benefit yourself at their expense?

No, not at all.

Attachment isn't like sin. To a Buddhist, attachment is more like lactose to a lactose-intolerant. You can recognize that lactose is the root of your difficulties, and work to eliminate it from your life, while still working for the Milk Council without that being some kind of deep moral hypocrisy. Just because it causes suffering for you doesn't mean other people have a problem with it, and even if they do, it doesn't mean they can't choose to drink the occasional glass without over-doing things.

You can work a job and buy an iPod and sleep with your wife without being attached to those things in the unhealthy way that Buddhists mean by attachment.

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#49
Let me clear a couple of basic things related to this issue.

The origin of Zen comes from greater vehicle Buddhism. In Buddhism, we have two main derivatives: greater vehicle Buddhism and small vehicle Buddhism.

Small vehicle Buddhism devotedly focuses on what Buddha done to reach nilvana. So, they execute tough ascetic training in shrines.

But, as we know, not everyone can execute such training because of many reasons. So, greater vehicle Buddhism was born. And Zen was established in China by indian Buhddist, Daruma because it was heretical in India. After Confucianism became major religion in China, Japan was the successor of Zen. This is the history.

This story is pertially closed to the origin of Christianity.

Zen is the practice everyone can do. Controlling anger, relieving oneself from anxiety, and exploring answers inside, not outside. That's all. The meditation is one of the methods. We can do it everywhere.

One of the key concept in Buddhism is "changing ever". Everything is unstable.

And, I realize that one of the Jobs's greatest management philosophy is to release his past. This philosophy is very closed the above concept in Buddhism. As we get old, we easily stick to our past achievement. But, it doesn't mean anything, even will be bottleneck for us to step forward simply because everything changes, which also means everything is imperfect.

I think this is why Jobs used to said "the death is the great invention" because we are forced to step forward by death.

I think it's not about religious thing, it's about philosophy every one should have.

For me, it's not important whether Jobs is a kind of Buhddhist or not. He taught us "to release past". That's a most important thing.

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#50
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know what the limits to Buddhism are? Have you tested the limits? Letting go of conceptions was one of Buddha's teachings. "Certain things are predominately innate" is a conception and holding on to that limits progress [1]. [1] Progress in this case means deliverance (enlightenment).

There is no certainty, only degrees of belief. I don't "know" that the world is round--I haven't seen it from space and I haven't circumnavigated the globe, and I can't construct a proof. However, I'm "pretty damn sure" the world is round. If the human race restricted its belief to only those things it could be 100% sure of, we would still be in the Bronze Age. Similarly, I can't know that Buddhism can't levitate you…

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304395907...

That was only a pilot study, but it does appear that meditation is useful for pain. A recent fmri study suggested that one year of meditation caused quite large changes in the experience of pain.

Post reply on HN