Don't Call Yourself a Programmer • Hacker News Board

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#221

Post by mechanical_fish » Sat, Oct 29, 2011, 8:50 PM UTC

_delirium wrote: post #218

mechanical_fish wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All sorts of stuff in there. Patrick stated that you can submit journal articles without being employed by a university or think tank. This is true. He also stated that, while it is perhaps thrilling to get a journal article published to an audience of hundreds, it is perhaps nearly as thrilling, plus one hell of a lot less work, to write essays on HN for an audience of tens of thousands. This is also true. Don't con…

let me suggest that one could also look for a job where you can sell solutions to customers and keep control of your own IP, publishing it as you will. If you want to be told many stories about how this can work, go to an open source software conference. I believe this is possible , but if your goal is to do novel scientific research and publish the results, it's exceptionally uncommon . I rely on all sorts of statis…

the way the economics work out, independent consultants rarely spend much time on basic research

Am I wrong to read this as: "After forty hours a week spend on doing well-paid work for clients, it's hard to find another thirty hours to scour literature and write up results, while still having a life?"

Because I'd be cautious in assuming that academics work much less than seventy hours a week. ;)

It's true, though: Doing an actual stint in academia is the right way to get a lot of scientific publications out. But: It doesn't pay well. It's not the most effective way of keeping yourself alive, or creating clear and saleable value for others. That's why I call it a hobby. You are taking time away from more valuable pursuits to advance the field, teach people, and maybe even practice a little art.

I'm sad to see that people think my use of the word hobby is so demeaning. I'm a big believer in hobbies. Here's my philosophy of the ideal life: You're born, you enjoy a series of hobbies (some of which may be deadly serious, like Steve Jobs' hobby of inventing the future), and then you die. I suppose I could look for a better word, but if the word doesn't express the concept of loads of fun it's not the right word.

Apparently writing essays on HN is the hobby of the day for me...

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#222

Post by screwt » Sat, Oct 29, 2011, 9:30 PM UTC

forensic wrote: post #214

lazerwalker wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you were a carpenter, you wouldn't tell your friends "I hammer things all day", you'd tell them that you make things out of wood. I'd argue that the fact that you spend your day "programming" is more of an implementation detail of the bigger picture that your job is to create software.

If you were a carpenter, you'd tell your friends you're a carpenter. If you were a janitor, you'd tell your friends you're a sanitation worker. If you were a stripper, you'd tell your friends you're an exotic dancer. Patio is saying we should say "engineer" instead of "programmer" because programmer has similar connotations to janitor.

In my experience, 'engineer' has closer connotations to janitor than 'programmer'. Certainly in the UK, engineering as a profession has a big image problem because the average person doesn't distinguish between e.g. a heating engineer (who fixes the boiler) and say, a civil engineer (someone with a Masters degree + 4 years professional experience and accreditation).

People I know who are programmers all have professional jobs and by and large are earning more than those I know who are engineers. That's probably not a representative sample of 'programmers' though.

tl;dr: 'engineer' doesn't sound too professional either, at least in the UK. IMO Software Developer sounds better than either, and that's what I tell people I am.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#223

Post by miles_matthias » Sat, Oct 29, 2011, 9:38 PM UTC

ajtaylor wrote: post #132

Patrick has some great advice. I'll add my own anecdote: earlier this year I had an interview which required taking a plane. I decided to wear my suit on the plane, and it was an entirely new experience. I can't put my finger on exactly what it was, but the people simply seemed nicer, more pleasant and accommodating. If you want people to think of you as a professional, dressing the part certainly helps.

I hate the fact that people get treated differently because of what they wear. It's ridiculous and unfair, but that is reality.

And that's one of the biggest things I took from this piece: Yea, it all sucks and is ridiculous most of the time, but it's the way the game is played. Play it or get left behind.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#224

Post by _delirium » Sat, Oct 29, 2011, 9:55 PM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #217

gruseom wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no game. I've simply heard from people who've worked at Google that the revenue-generating groups are far from the highest-respected. So I think the cited example may in fact be a counterexample. (Certainly there are many angel investors among Googlers and former Googlers who worked in all sorts of areas.) Perhaps because Google was started by programmers, programmers don't have to pretend to be something els…

So who, then is the highest respected?

If you go by who HN likes, I'd guess the researchers, who mostly do infrastructure and PLs type stuff-- Peter Norvig, Rob Pike, etc. But that's cheating in a way because they were already famous before Google hired them.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#225

Post by cool-RR » Sat, Oct 29, 2011, 10:28 PM UTC

Thanks for this manifesto patio11! I read it a couple of times and thought how I could apply it to my career.

There are 2 parts in it that I have difficulties with, and I'd appreciate clarifications:

-----------------------------

"In the real world, picking up a new language takes a few weeks of effort and after 6 to 12 months nobody will ever notice you haven’t been doing that one for your entire career."

How can you say that? Sure, an experienced and intelligent programmer can learn to program in Language X in a few weeks, but do you think that after a year he will reach the same level of efficiency of a similarly experienced and intelligent programmer who has 8 years of experience programming?

Sure, you'd know most of the important things that the 8-year guy knows, but I was taught that the worth of programmers is exponential to their talents. Say that if you're at the 99% percentile of Language X developers, there are (say) about 1,000 people like you in the world. If you're in the 99.99% percentlie, there are now only 10 people like you worldwide. Wouldn't that result in a much bigger price that you could put on your services?

-----------------------------

"Profit Centers are the part of an organization that bring in the bacon [...] Cost Centers are, well, everybody else. You really want to be attached to Profit Centers."

I don't understand this.

Let me see if I got the terms right: Profit Centers are "where the money comes in from", and Cost Center are "where the money comes out of". But of course, Cost Centers do not exist because CEOs are looking for ways to flush money down the tubes-- it's just that Cost Centers bring in money in indirect ways. For example, let's say that you're a CEO, and you have hired an expensive programmer to write a script that periodically checks that your backups are valid. That would qualify for a "Cost Center", right? And everyone would agree that this is a wise investment.

So what am I supposed to do if I'm hired to do this kind of job? Decline it because it's a Cost Cetner?

You also suggest to "engineer your transfer [from Cost Center to Profit Center] after joining the company". Wouldn't that be kinda douche-y? I mean, I'd be pretty pissed if I hired a guy to do Job X and then he was trying to engineer his way into Job Y because that's where the money is.

-----------------------------

Thanks again for the post!

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#226

Post by swah » Sat, Oct 29, 2011, 11:09 PM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #114

freemarketteddy wrote: post #22

I think Patrick is missing a niche segment of Hackers who have been making a lot of money in last few years.They are the independent Mobile App Developer(iOS/Android) If you choose this path then you dont even have to start a company,all you need to do is make awesome apps.It might be a little hard to start but in a year you should be making good enough money to go independent and then sky is the limit.It is not only…

Everyone knows I pay my rent by making bingo cards for elementary schoolteachers and bear no ill will for small businesses, right? If you are sufficiently skilled to create a popular iPhone app, you can sleepwalk your way into either $100k+ as a salaried engineer or $200+ an hour doing contracting work. The vast majority of app devs will not reach these numbers.

But the company must be making more than 100K by employing that guy. So what does that mean? That a big company is actually a much better wealth creator than most individuals?

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#227

Post by barry-cotter » Sat, Oct 29, 2011, 11:17 PM UTC

cool-RR wrote: post #225

Thanks for this manifesto patio11! I read it a couple of times and thought how I could apply it to my career. There are 2 parts in it that I have difficulties with, and I'd appreciate clarifications: ----------------------------- "In the real world, picking up a new language takes a few weeks of effort and after 6 to 12 months nobody will ever notice you haven’t been doing that one for your entire career." How can yo…

Cost centres are to be minimised as far as possible. This occasionally means they will be minimised more than is wise and there will be an emergency when this shows up and someone has to fix it.

Nevertheless a Cost Centre is a kind of janitor, an absolutely necessary thing that should be done, at the minimum cost that lends itself to an acceptable standard. Another concept that might enlighten you in this context is Core Competency. Everything that is not this can in theory be outsourced. In practice it may not be worth outsourcing because it would cost too much in time, money or communications overhead but the company exists to charge money to do its Core Competency and everything else is detail.

Don't be detail.

If you are hired to work on a cost centre you attempt to make or save money and either get a raise/bonus for doing so, or move to where you can, whether in the company or in another one.

Finally, being only "kinda douche-y" makes you vastly less douche-y than just about everybody in the executive suite. Your colleagues are mostly not your friends. Your manager is definitely not your friend. Your manager's manger's job is partly to get as much value (work) out of people like you for the least money possible.

If you are ever in a job where you and your (over)manager are directly antagonistic run like hell, but 100% aligned incentives are very, very rare. If you want keywords try "principal agent problem".

You are not a sarariman, you will never have either job security or loyalty from above so don't act loyal from below, it just makes you a chump.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#228

Post by Ralith » Sat, Oct 29, 2011, 11:28 PM UTC

cool-RR wrote: post #225

Thanks for this manifesto patio11! I read it a couple of times and thought how I could apply it to my career. There are 2 parts in it that I have difficulties with, and I'd appreciate clarifications: ----------------------------- "In the real world, picking up a new language takes a few weeks of effort and after 6 to 12 months nobody will ever notice you haven’t been doing that one for your entire career." How can yo…

I'm not OP, but I think I can address your concerns a bit:

In the former case, I think OP's point was that being exceptionally familiar with a given language or technology is not what ultimately makes a programmer exceptionally good: that factor is platform-independent, so to speak. Being one of the 10 programmers in the world most familiar with X might be a neat thing to put on your resume (if you could prove it) but probably isn't as important to getting your job done well as the elements of your skills which apply regardless of language.

In the latter case, yes, cost centers are valuable, otherwise they wouldn't exist at all, but they're not the company's primary business, and if something needs to be cut, they'll consider ancillary stuff like this first. This is really just a repeat of the age-old advice to work at a company whose primary business is whatever it is you want to do, as that will usually get you the best treatment.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#229

Post by forensic » Sat, Oct 29, 2011, 11:35 PM UTC

screwt wrote: post #222

forensic wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you were a carpenter, you'd tell your friends you're a carpenter. If you were a janitor, you'd tell your friends you're a sanitation worker. If you were a stripper, you'd tell your friends you're an exotic dancer. Patio is saying we should say "engineer" instead of "programmer" because programmer has similar connotations to janitor.

In my experience, 'engineer' has closer connotations to janitor than 'programmer'. Certainly in the UK, engineering as a profession has a big image problem because the average person doesn't distinguish between e.g. a heating engineer (who fixes the boiler) and say, a civil engineer (someone with a Masters degree + 4 years professional experience and accreditation). People I know who are programmers all have professi…

In North America an engineer is either a train operator, someone with a university degree in "Engineering", or a programmer. So you can see the difference.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#230

Post by viraptor » Sat, Oct 29, 2011, 11:37 PM UTC

mechanical_fish wrote: post #220

alecbenzer wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still an undergrad so it'd be completely logical to just ignore my opinion, but..... you went from doing research to supporting PHP apps? Did you initially want to go into more researchy things and then decide "this is boring, I want to just support PHP apps instead", or did you go into research knowing you'd eventually want to do something like supporting PHP apps? I'm unsure about my own career but going to gra…

Did you initially want to go into more researchy things and then decide "this is boring, I want to just support PHP apps instead"? Yeah, stripped of all the romance and intrigue, that's basically it. Things I would tell someone in your position: Don't underestimate the wonderful things that money can do for your life. Don't underestimate the joy of being given money by grateful customers because you have made them in…

Just a note regarding cancer research. I'm a developer and have been to a number of conferences. The one I enjoyed the most was almost unrelated to computers - cancer research and systems biology conference. It was an amazing experience to see how much it was similar to a dev meetup. How everything you thought you knew about cancer and what people know about it (do they?) is gone now. It was great to see how cancer research has it's own mini-universe of startups, academia, corporations and simple jobs inside the larger academia container. An eye-opening experience I would really recommend. (just take a friend who can translate some crazy expressions to programmer-acceptable language)