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Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

kalzumeus.com

101–110 of 274 posts

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is literally true. But I come out of experimental physics, semiconductor engineering, and biology, where "the necessary background to be able to do good research" generally translates to "you have the kind of lab skills training that you can only get by getting a Ph.D. in a lab just like ours, plus you know how to write (or at least contribute vital portions of) successful grants to pay for the equipment you'll…

I think we're disagreeing mostly on what "getting into the labs" means. Sure, you can't walk into a lab filled with expensive equipment and start doing your own research; but you could absolutely walk into someone's lab and start helping to do their research. My father studies chemical reactions in supercritical water using a beam of spin-polarized muons from a cyclotron; there's many millions of dollars of equipment…

It's been a long time since I was in graduate school, but, at least in chemistry, there were at least 20 highly qualified and ambitious people waiting for a shot at any seat in a top lab. There was no chance in hell of just walking in there and working for free. The time it would take people already in the lab to bring you up to speed wouldn't be worth it.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#102
For example, consider an internal travel expense reporting form. Across a company with 2,000 employees, that might save 5,000 man-hours a year (at an average fully-loaded cost of $50 an hour) versus handling expenses on paper, for a savings of $250,000 a year.

I should have demanded a bonus for the in-house purchase req system I wrote to replace the antiquated, pen & paper system we had been using for years. I feel better about the salary I was drawing with this in mind.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#103
post #83
post #74

Is this article's claim about Google -- that the programmers closest to Adwords revenue have highest status (edit: and/or pay) -- true? It contradicts what I've heard.

I don't think he said they had the highest status...I think he said they were the best paid. I'm not sure if that's true or not, but it's a very different claim. (I too have heard differently)

I've updated my question to make it more precise. Either way, it would contradict what I've heard.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#104
In the real world, picking up a new language takes a few weeks of effort and after 6 to 12 months nobody will ever notice you haven’t been doing that one for your entire career.

I wish more HR/recruiting people understood this.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#105

I think Patrick is missing a niche segment of Hackers who have been making a lot of money in last few years.They are the independent Mobile App Developer(iOS/Android) If you choose this path then you dont even have to start a company,all you need to do is make awesome apps.It might be a little hard to start but in a year you should be making good enough money to go independent and then sky is the limit.It is not only…

I think you're vastly overestimating how easy this is. According to a number of studies I've seen, your odds of even making more than four figures a year are ridiculously low. If you're not in the top 10%, you basically won't make crap.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#106
post #87
post #43

One of the things that I see among hardworking smart people is they somehow tend to use 'difficult work' as a yardstick to measure 'good work'. Difficult work need not necessarily be good work. Unfortunately if you fall for this, you will end up wasting a lot of time, effort and energy over years and at the end wonder why you are not as rich as someone who does has half the difficult work as you do. 'Good work' or so…

> "One of the things that I see among hardworking smart people is they somehow tend to use 'difficult work' as a yardstick to measure 'good work'. Difficult work need not necessarily be good work. Unfortunately if you fall for this, you will end up wasting a lot of time, effort and energy over years and at the end wonder why you are not as rich as someone who does has half the difficult work as you do." A connection…

I would like to explain this in more detail. Imagine a person is working to deliver a business application, a typical application with a OO language that interacts with a database. And he sort of uses the normal set of tools for the job. He uses a version control system, bug tracking/time tracking systems. He uses scripting to do data heavy lifting tasks, he learns SQL and learns to use various features of a RDBMS. He also learns techniques for medium level scalability(learns how to use cache etc). He learns to use the IDE, the API's. He begins to learn Unix in greater detail and how to use that for development and deployment. He learns how to test, write unit tests. He also learns best practices. He does regular code reviews. He learns the process of collecting requirements, delivering finished stuff. Talking to customers etc etc.

All these things that I mentioned, have virtually very little to do with diving deep into Computer Science aspects. Yet this is the story of nearly every software shop out there. If a person can just focus on doing that stuff properly he can be a lot ahead of the regular crowd. And make real good money too.

This also the place where you can get into project management and still have you handson going. Because there aren't major paradigm changes to this once you get used to them well. All you need to do is keep in touch with some latest stuff and you can really end up making a lot of money. And still continue to climb the corporate ladder, be a good management and have good control over technical stuff.

Now image an another scenario. You join a major big web corp, they hire you to write difficult algorithm stuff. Sure your passion will help you learn. But compared to the first guy your opportunities to interact with business are so scanty you really will miss out the big money stuff. The same thing happens with start up's. Also you will no longer be the reap the management pie, you will always continue to write code. And the biggest problem with our society is management drives the value addition. You will just end up being a implementer in their hands, you won't end driving up much value and with that definition money too. Over the years you miss out on the whole ecosystem, and you just won't have flow to compete with your peers if you ever want to get back and compete with them.

Also the the first kind of jobs have many low hanging fruits to make lot of money.

Also about start up's like OP mentioned:

The high-percentage outcome is you work really hard for the next couple of years, fail ingloriously, and then be jobless and looking to get into another startup. If you really wanted to get into a startup two years out of school, you could also just go work at a megacorp for the next two years, earn a bit of money, then take your warchest, domain knowledge, and contacts and found one.

People have to understand, when you fail you loose time, and also the money which you had else made if you hadn't failed.

Sure go for the funky job. But also understand the risks behind them. Not all start up's, Big web corps are going to help you be big. There are good enough cases where people have made it big working there. But there also good enough cases where people haven't. When everything is going smooth and as expected its all milk and honey, but if it doesn't you are really toast.

I would say, Big corp jobs really are not as bad as they depicted to be. If you do the right stuff(Just do the bare minimum properly), you actually can be quite successful and go quite far both in your career and money wise.

And most important as I said, just merely doing technically difficult job automatically won't imply both career and financial success.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#107
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think he said they had the highest status...I think he said they were the best paid. I'm not sure if that's true or not, but it's a very different claim. (I too have heard differently)

I've updated my question to make it more precise. Either way, it would contradict what I've heard.

Please, let's not play this game- what have you heard?

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#108
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be interested to see the stats on people making apps on HN vs people actually making a lot of money on them

Search around on HN.You will find a lot threads with Single Founder success stories in recent times.Probably more than Startup Success stories.Two names that come to mind are Instapaper and BigNoggins productions.

I think that a few posts on HN is hardly enough evidence to say that if you make apps you'll probably be making enough money to support yourself within a year of starting.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#109

It seems like the author had a really hard time. If you're a software engineer, work at a software company if you want to be happy. Negotiation isn't what's going to get you the job either, programming is.

I agree. Working at a software company makes it more likely you'll enjoy your job as you're around a lot more people that just get it. In an IT dept. you're frequently battling the culture of whatever company you're in to create conditions suitable for building good software. Plus you're a little too close to the customer (the business).

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've updated my question to make it more precise. Either way, it would contradict what I've heard.

Please, let's not play this game- what have you heard?

There's no game. I've simply heard from people who've worked at Google that the revenue-generating groups are far from the highest-respected. So I think the cited example may in fact be a counterexample. (Certainly there are many angel investors among Googlers and former Googlers who worked in all sorts of areas.) Perhaps because Google was started by programmers, programmers don't have to pretend to be something else there.

I'm no Google insider, though, which is why I'd like to hear from people who actually know.

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