Texas police want uvalde bodycam footage suppressed • Hacker News Board

Re: Texas police want uvalde bodycam footage suppressed

#41

Post by emmelaich » Mon, Jun 13, 2022, 6:44 PM UTC

jjulius wrote: post #27

giraffe_lady wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They maintained control with minimal personal risk to themselves. From a "policing realism" perspective that's exactly what police do. Preventing or ending any sort of crime or violence is optional at that point, and they opted not to. This is extremely at odds with how the police want to be perceived , and managing that contradiction is certainly their biggest concern right now. From that perspective it's easy to un…

>They maintained control with minimal personal risk to themselves. From a "policing realism" perspective that's exactly what police do. Preventing or ending any sort of crime or violence is optional at that point, and they opted not to. Absolutely untrue, and has been for decades. Their hesitation to react and go in is the complete opposite of what they were trained to do, which is go in and eliminate the threat imme…

For a fair assessment, also read the interview with the police chief:

https://www.texastribune.org/2022/06/09/uvalde-chief-pete-ar...

In particular he did bring a radio but decided to remove it. Read the article for why.

Re: Texas police want uvalde bodycam footage suppressed

#42

Post by WaxProlix » Mon, Jun 13, 2022, 6:44 PM UTC

kadoban wrote: post #36

akira2501 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That leads to the most obvious question: "Are your training manuals and materials as closely guarded of a secret?" If not, then your implementation of them, however compromised, is not a secret either.

I've seen some of them passed around. They're not secret as far as I can tell. They pretty obviously are just embarassed by their failure.

There's an outside chance it's even worse than what we know now - maybe they killed a kid or two, or did something otherwise more shameful than expected.

Re: Texas police want uvalde bodycam footage suppressed

#43

Post by kube-system » Mon, Jun 13, 2022, 6:46 PM UTC

jjulius wrote: post #27

giraffe_lady wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They maintained control with minimal personal risk to themselves. From a "policing realism" perspective that's exactly what police do. Preventing or ending any sort of crime or violence is optional at that point, and they opted not to. This is extremely at odds with how the police want to be perceived , and managing that contradiction is certainly their biggest concern right now. From that perspective it's easy to un…

>They maintained control with minimal personal risk to themselves. From a "policing realism" perspective that's exactly what police do. Preventing or ending any sort of crime or violence is optional at that point, and they opted not to. Absolutely untrue, and has been for decades. Their hesitation to react and go in is the complete opposite of what they were trained to do, which is go in and eliminate the threat imme…

They may have attended training that generally suggests that approach, but police are not legally required to put themselves in harms way.

Re: Texas police want uvalde bodycam footage suppressed

#44

Post by Arrath » Mon, Jun 13, 2022, 6:47 PM UTC

WaxProlix wrote: post #42

kadoban wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen some of them passed around. They're not secret as far as I can tell. They pretty obviously are just embarassed by their failure.

There's an outside chance it's even worse than what we know now - maybe they killed a kid or two, or did something otherwise more shameful than expected.

> maybe they killed a kid or two

This is my sneaking suspicion.

Re: Texas police want uvalde bodycam footage suppressed

#45

Post by kadoban » Mon, Jun 13, 2022, 6:47 PM UTC

WaxProlix wrote: post #42

kadoban wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen some of them passed around. They're not secret as far as I can tell. They pretty obviously are just embarassed by their failure.

There's an outside chance it's even worse than what we know now - maybe they killed a kid or two, or did something otherwise more shameful than expected.

Yeah, the _best_ attempt at devils advocate I could give them would be that it should be secret just how crappy they are at following their own training/guidance. That's basically complete bullshit though, that's no reason for secrecy.

Re: Texas police want uvalde bodycam footage suppressed

#46

Post by aaaaaaaaata » Mon, Jun 13, 2022, 6:49 PM UTC

encryptluks2 wrote: post #33

kube-system wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

incriminate? What laws did the police break?

I can think of a few crimes that they could be charged with, but without evidence it certainly makes it harder.

Without legal requirement to protect anyone, probably no actual liability, besides being accused of wrong job syndrome or cowardice

Re: Texas police want uvalde bodycam footage suppressed

#47

Post by jjulius » Mon, Jun 13, 2022, 6:49 PM UTC

kube-system wrote: post #43

jjulius wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They maintained control with minimal personal risk to themselves. From a "policing realism" perspective that's exactly what police do. Preventing or ending any sort of crime or violence is optional at that point, and they opted not to. Absolutely untrue, and has been for decades. Their hesitation to react and go in is the complete opposite of what they were trained to do, which is go in and eliminate the threat imme…

They may have attended training that generally suggests that approach, but police are not legally required to put themselves in harms way.

If you don't want to find yourself in harm's way, don't become a police officer. Legally required or not, they knew the risks when they signed up, they knew what they were trained to do, and then they... didn't.

Re: Texas police want uvalde bodycam footage suppressed

#48

Post by donmcronald » Mon, Jun 13, 2022, 6:49 PM UTC

Arrath wrote: post #2

I think the 'weakness' of their response is plainly obvious. If criminals can find advantages in this footage, its an opportunity to overhaul training programs and response plans. The training and response was woefully inadequate for this crisis, after all. There should be no reasonable reality in which the release of this footage is suppressed. This is an undeniable tragedy, battening down the hatches and obstinatel…

I think the problem is that no one wants to take the blame for being wrong or unprepared and the media won't pass up an opportunity to sensationalize mistakes as incompetency, maliciousness, etc..

I wish more of the world could function like the culture adopted by the western airline industry where every incident and investigation is treated as an opportunity to learn and improve the system rather than an opportunity to lay blame.

I think it's perfectly reasonable for anyone directly impacted to expect there to be consequences for the lack of preparedness, etc., but I think the big picture needs to be more along the lines of realizing that kind of unpreparedness isn't part of some grand plan or conspiracy and that working to improve the system for next time gives us better overall value (long term) than punishing the people involved.

At least for government institutions, I think that kind of system could be mandated as long as employees get the same deal as pilots. In exchange for willful participation, with the goal of improving the overall system, you aren't punished for anything that was an honest mistake, misunderstanding, lack of training, etc..

Re: Texas police want uvalde bodycam footage suppressed

#49

Post by drugstorecowboy » Mon, Jun 13, 2022, 6:49 PM UTC

bitwize wrote: post #29

EricE wrote: post #10

It sort of blows up the whole pro gun control argument that citizens shouldn't be expected to have to protect themselves but instead rely on law enforcement :p

The new argument is "If trained police officers are afraid to engage an active shooter, why should we expect school staff to?"

Yes, which completely ignores the difference between a person who has had this situation forced on them (A teacher or school administrator) and someone who has to choose to enter it.

I think it might be quite a bit easier to confront a shooter when its obvious that doing nothing will result in your death. In this situation in particular I can't imagine how armed teachers would have made it any worse, but can certainly imagine it making it better.

Re: Texas police want uvalde bodycam footage suppressed

#50

Post by kube-system » Mon, Jun 13, 2022, 6:49 PM UTC

encryptluks2 wrote: post #33

kube-system wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

incriminate? What laws did the police break?

I can think of a few crimes that they could be charged with, but without evidence it certainly makes it harder.

Like what?