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EU vote to ban all sales of combustion engine vehicles by 2035

theregister.com

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Re: EU vote to ban all sales of combustion engine vehicles by 2035

#141

Post by [deleted] »

fmajid wrote: post #133
scrollaway wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I expect the 2035 limit to be relaxed or result in fewer car sales because we can't power them up. Good . We need fewer car sales. We need more non-car infrastructure. We don't need an "output equivalent to the energy stored in the fuel used by today's non EV cars". What we need is fewer cars and more people on public transports and bicycles wherever it makes sense. Less car trips. The current price of gas is alrea…

The population is ageing. The idea that everyone will use bicycles is ableist nonsense.

[deleted]

Re: EU vote to ban all sales of combustion engine vehicles by 2035

#142

Post by hoseja »

bionsystem wrote: post #136
hoseja wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get how everyone is acting like EVs increase energy demands. They are way more efficient than ICEs, it would even be better to switch to EVs and just burn gasoline in big turbine powerplants.

I can't see if you are being sarcastic or not but this is definitely wrong. Burning gasoline to move a car is much more efficient than burning gasoline to produce electricity transported to a charger to charge a car to move a car.

I am not actually being sarcastic. It's unbelievable but small ICEs are really that bad.

Re: EU vote to ban all sales of combustion engine vehicles by 2035

#143

Post by hoseja »

jhgb wrote: post #138
bionsystem wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't see if you are being sarcastic or not but this is definitely wrong. Burning gasoline to move a car is much more efficient than burning gasoline to produce electricity transported to a charger to charge a car to move a car.

Uh...when was the last time you checked on the difference between the efficiency of small and large heat engines? A large Diesel engine is going to be vastly more efficient than a small one, for example: > Passenger car diesel engines have energy efficiency of up to 41% but more typically 30% ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_efficiency#Statistics ) > Low-speed diesel engines (as used in ships and other applicatio…

I'm thinking more like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_cycle_power_plant

Re: EU vote to ban all sales of combustion engine vehicles by 2035

#144

Post by bionsystem »

jhgb wrote: post #138
bionsystem wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't see if you are being sarcastic or not but this is definitely wrong. Burning gasoline to move a car is much more efficient than burning gasoline to produce electricity transported to a charger to charge a car to move a car.

Uh...when was the last time you checked on the difference between the efficiency of small and large heat engines? A large Diesel engine is going to be vastly more efficient than a small one, for example: > Passenger car diesel engines have energy efficiency of up to 41% but more typically 30% ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_efficiency#Statistics ) > Low-speed diesel engines (as used in ships and other applicatio…

Let's assume we go from 30% (low end of small engine efficiency according to first link) to 55% (high end for a Diesel engine according to the second article), so a little short of twice as efficient. What do you think is going to be the overhead of the conversion rate to electricity, electricity transportation ? Because if it is another 50% you lost all interest (but you built a plant and a float of cars and batteries in the meantime).

> Not to mention that a very large percentage of electricity for charging of vehicles is not going to come from fossil fuels in the first place, especially whenever charging can be planned (which is most of the time in Europe).

That's not what my parent and I are talking about. But I second that. Except I live in France and we are starting to have electricity cuts because we can't maintain our nuclear plants properly. So we are in a little bit more trouble than you might think.

Re: EU vote to ban all sales of combustion engine vehicles by 2035

#145

Post by wongarsu »

bionsystem wrote: post #136
hoseja wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get how everyone is acting like EVs increase energy demands. They are way more efficient than ICEs, it would even be better to switch to EVs and just burn gasoline in big turbine powerplants.

I can't see if you are being sarcastic or not but this is definitely wrong. Burning gasoline to move a car is much more efficient than burning gasoline to produce electricity transported to a charger to charge a car to move a car.

Gasoline engines in road-legal cars have about 20-35% thermal efficiency. Just making the engine bigger and not caring about engine weight (like in ships or power plants) allows you to bring efficiency up to about 55%. Electric motors (as used in electric cars) are about 90% efficient.

Of course you lose some charging and discharging the battery, in the charger itself and in transmission losses. But just eyeballing it it seems like the power plant should come out ahead as long as it isn't too far away.

Re: EU vote to ban all sales of combustion engine vehicles by 2035

#146

Post by adrianN »

mateo1 wrote: post #122
bambax wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's what I'm thinking too. It's a vicious circle (or maybe a virtuous one?) but once fuel stations start closing in droves it will become very impractical to own a petrol car.

A petrol stations running costs are very low. They break even with 2% margins. Even if they go away, a 2m^3 tank at home will last you for a year or more. And if your typical full tank range of 500-600km is not enough, you can toss a few fuel cans in the trunk and travel across the continent without refueling. The only way ICEs will go away is by hostile legislation, being regulated and taxed to death purely for ideo…

Global warming is not an ideological reason. Neither is air pollution in densely populated areas.

Re: EU vote to ban all sales of combustion engine vehicles by 2035

#147

Post by koonsolo »

scrollaway wrote: post #128
moravak1984 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> everything else can be left up to the market. Let's see how "the market" likes being unable to drive to their beach holidays without infrastructure. >> After all the investment to build a fast charger is easy if you have a guarantee that the number of customers will increase dramatically. Maybe, but there is no such guarantee. You can't solve everything by throwing money at it. Fast chargers/decent batteries remai…

> Let's see how "the market" likes being unable to drive to their beach holidays without infrastructure. This is banning the sale, not the use. And trains exist in Europe.

Airplanes are faster than trains.

Re: EU vote to ban all sales of combustion engine vehicles by 2035

#148

Post by adrianN »

fmajid wrote: post #133
scrollaway wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I expect the 2035 limit to be relaxed or result in fewer car sales because we can't power them up. Good . We need fewer car sales. We need more non-car infrastructure. We don't need an "output equivalent to the energy stored in the fuel used by today's non EV cars". What we need is fewer cars and more people on public transports and bicycles wherever it makes sense. Less car trips. The current price of gas is alrea…

The population is ageing. The idea that everyone will use bicycles is ableist nonsense.

Electric tricycles are safer for elderly people than even walking. They're far safer than having them drive a car.

Re: EU vote to ban all sales of combustion engine vehicles by 2035

#149

Post by Ntrails »

scrollaway wrote: post #127
pmontra wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't only have to build fast chargers. We have to build electrical power plants with an output equivalent to the energy stored in the fuel used by today's non EV cars. Find sites, get permissions, build. That's a big race no matter the technology used by those power plants. I expect the 2035 limit to be relaxed or result in fewer car sales because we can't power them up.

> I expect the 2035 limit to be relaxed or result in fewer car sales because we can't power them up. Good . We need fewer car sales. We need more non-car infrastructure. We don't need an "output equivalent to the energy stored in the fuel used by today's non EV cars". What we need is fewer cars and more people on public transports and bicycles wherever it makes sense. Less car trips. The current price of gas is alrea…

> Less car trips. The current price of gas is already pushing people to take their car less and prioritize cheaper modes of transportation.

Cheaper?. 100 miles on the train is more expensive [in the UK] than the fuel for the same trip. And that's before I put 4 people in the sodding car. Not to mention, my standard drive is barely serviced by public transport (requiring three changes and a significant detour). You can even amortise my car costs and I'm still way ahead in time, costs and convenience.

NB. I'd really like the railways and buses nationalised and heavily subsidised to support fixed costs based solely on bucketed crow flies distance, log scaled etc. But whilst they are the way they are - no way will I give up a car.

Re: EU vote to ban all sales of combustion engine vehicles by 2035

#150

Post by alexandargyurov »

Multicomp wrote: post #126
alexandargyurov wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm interested in the US-made car market. I don't know much but something on my todo list to learn. I've heard good things about the US making good cars

Tldr we taught the Japanese how to make quality cars back in the day, they took those lessons and refined them further and further. Meanwhile the US car companies got stuck with Harvard Business School MBAs doing value engineering and badge engineering that nearly sank the US car companies in the 70s and 80s vs the Japanese competition in terms of reliability and TCO. So the US can make a few good cars for things lik…

Thank you, sums it up really nicely.
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