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Lessons from the golden age of the mall walkers

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Re: Lessons from the golden age of the mall walkers

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is absurd to say there is no place to walk in the suburbs. People just walk on the suburban streets. Most suburban streets are obviously not the highway. I just got back from a walk in the suburbs and passed 5 other people out for their morning walk. I don't think I even passed a car. My impression of mall walking is that it was largely used by people when the weather was bad.

One thing missing in a lot of suburban places is the ability to walk to do chores. Out of curiosity, what destinations do you have within 15 minutes of walking? Can you buy milk? Go to the bank? Have access to a coffee place? Etc. It’s nice to have walking paths, but so many new developments in the US seem to actively make walking a poor option (beyond exercise). The roads in many of these areas even if there is a st…

> One thing missing in a lot of suburban places is the ability to walk to do chores.

Within 15 minutes walk of my very suburban house there are two supermarkets, two pharmacies, many restaurants (some fast food but also real restaurants), multiple coffee shops, movie theaters, library & post office, hardware stores, other misc stores, multiple banks & credit unions and other things I'm forgetting to list.

One question I've asked in these threads in the past is where are these suburbs where you can't get to anything except by driving half an hour? I'd be curious for specific place names that I can look up in maps to get a sense of what they're like. Because having mostly lived in suburbs, I've never experienced that. There's always walkable destinations in all suburban areas I've seen. Could someone post a few addresses of these unwalkable suburbs?

I've also lived in a rural area, and yes there a car was essentially a must to go anywhere. I could and did sometimes walk (was young and bored) but it was more than an hour walk to anywhere. But that was definitely rural, we had many acres of forest, certainly not a suburb.

Re: Lessons from the golden age of the mall walkers

#92
post #7

The real lesson of mall walking is that it came about because in many places there's literally nowhere else you can walk. Non-Americans may be vaguely aware that America has a sickness of car dependency but may be unaware of the extent of it. I present to you the 26 lane Katy Freeway in Houston, Texas [1]. Non-Americans may not realize just how large these cities are geographically. I believe one end of the Houston m…

That's not an actual picture of the road in the article. I'm also not sure one should count the feeder or access road as a part of the freeway. If you can't go freeway speeds it's probably not a freeway.

While that picture doesn't belong with the article (it's not the Katy freeway mentioned, if indeed it's a genuine photo at all and not a photoshop job), the real thing in Texas seems dystopian enough in its own right: https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7847495,-95.5325233,3a,75y,2...

Re: Lessons from the golden age of the mall walkers

#93
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is simply not true, and it was less true in the 80's/90's.

There might be two separate assertions under discussion. One is that it is typically difficult in a suburb to get to a landmark destination (e.g. to the grocery store, to the gym, to a coffee shop, and to work) just by walking, without a car. This is true. At the same time, suburbs with low rates of crime are typically nicer to walk around without a destination in mind. It’s typically easier to go outside for a jog o…

> One is that it is typically difficult in a suburb to get to a landmark destination (e.g. to the grocery store, to the gym, to a coffee shop, and to work) just by walking, without a car.

> This is true.

Could you post a few map links to suburbs (not rural) where you can't walk to, say, a grocery store or a coffee shop?

Re: Lessons from the golden age of the mall walkers

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all suburbs are complete car dependence. Plenty of kids biked in their suburbs in the '80s and '90s. In the '90s I would alternate between biking and walking to and from a school that was 2.5 miles away. And within that 2.5 miles there was plenty of things for me to do. Since then, I've lived in about 7 different US suburbs. All had things to do within about 1.5 miles of where I lived, and I wasn't exactly aiming…

In the area where I live, the schools are in easy walking distance. I never see kids walk or bike to school.

Maybe because you're not out right before or after school?

I know that at least where I live in Ontario, if you live within 3 km (elementary) or 5 km (secondary) of the school you are not entitled to bus pick-up. Maybe some parents drive their kids, but most kids walk, and a few bike. Also, if you live farther away than that, the bus stop could be as far away as 0.5 km where the bus picks up a lot of kids at one time (unless you live on a busy highway, in which case it will be at your driveway).

Related: late last night I sent an email to my city councilor to see about getting bike lanes added to some of the roads in the neighbourhood of two schools. One of my arguments was that it would make it more viable for kids to bike to school. I've had this thought years ago, but only now did I decide to actually see if I could get it done. To my surprise, the councilor and the mayor responded early this (Saturday) morning, both in agreement and said they would add it to the agenda for discussion and invited me to send further comments to their Master Transportation Plan that will soon be meeting (I believe this is something they do every 10 years). We'll see if it actually gets done, but I'm hopeful.

Re: Lessons from the golden age of the mall walkers

#96

I think the anti-mall narrative is generally misplaced. Suburban malls were a mitigation of sprawl but are somehow viewed more as a direct symptom. Strip malls continue to thrive, and the form where there are residences atop the commercial storefronts does little to improve the need to flit from parking lot to parking lot like consumerist pollinators. In Austin, there’s a huge amount of development at the mixed-use o…

> Yet, the thing is peppered with crowded roads

Not from the US, but: NYC has crowded roads crossing right through downtown. So does Paris and many other famously "walkable" european cities.

I think while traffic is certainly relevant and it's always an improvement if it can be reduced, it's not what blocks an area from becoming walkable. It's more how much space the area affords for pedestrians next to the traffic: Can you get from A to B without detours and without danger? Can you cross the busy roads? Are there enough spaces to get away from the traffic?

Re: Lessons from the golden age of the mall walkers

#97
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not an actual picture of the road in the article. I'm also not sure one should count the feeder or access road as a part of the freeway. If you can't go freeway speeds it's probably not a freeway.

While that picture doesn't belong with the article (it's not the Katy freeway mentioned, if indeed it's a genuine photo at all and not a photoshop job), the real thing in Texas seems dystopian enough in its own right: https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7847495,-95.5325233,3a,75y,2...

Seems pretty similar to the 401 in Toronto, which is 18 lanes wide on some parts (not including merge lanes or access lanes):

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.64726,-79.6370771,631m/data=!...

Re: Lessons from the golden age of the mall walkers

#98
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing missing in a lot of suburban places is the ability to walk to do chores. Out of curiosity, what destinations do you have within 15 minutes of walking? Can you buy milk? Go to the bank? Have access to a coffee place? Etc. It’s nice to have walking paths, but so many new developments in the US seem to actively make walking a poor option (beyond exercise). The roads in many of these areas even if there is a st…

> One thing missing in a lot of suburban places is the ability to walk to do chores. Within 15 minutes walk of my very suburban house there are two supermarkets, two pharmacies, many restaurants (some fast food but also real restaurants), multiple coffee shops, movie theaters, library & post office, hardware stores, other misc stores, multiple banks & credit unions and other things I'm forgetting to list. One questio…

Norfolk / Virginia Beach, VA:

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/36.7727569,-76.0409875/Harri...

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/36.7651538,-75.9875131/ALDI,...

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/36.695792,-76.2014209/Harris...

Charlotte, NC:

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/35.1699757,-80.7776553/Publi...

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/35.3178445,-80.8026925/Food+...

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/35.1256141,-80.764483/Harris...

Oklahoma City:

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/35.5530786,-97.5514845/Walma...

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/35.4038959,-97.5743727/Cash+...

Las Vegas:

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/36.2812358,-115.1554982/Smit...

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/35.9958535,-115.1523847/Walm...

Re: Lessons from the golden age of the mall walkers

#99
post #7

The real lesson of mall walking is that it came about because in many places there's literally nowhere else you can walk. Non-Americans may be vaguely aware that America has a sickness of car dependency but may be unaware of the extent of it. I present to you the 26 lane Katy Freeway in Houston, Texas [1]. Non-Americans may not realize just how large these cities are geographically. I believe one end of the Houston m…

> I believe one end of the Houston metro area to the other is almost as far as London to Birmingham.

One end of the London metro area to the other (say, from Reading to Southend-on-Sea) is almost (half of the distance) as far as London to Birmingham.

Both London and Houston seem to have metro areas of maybe almost 100km in diameter.

Re: Lessons from the golden age of the mall walkers

#100
post #98
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One thing missing in a lot of suburban places is the ability to walk to do chores. Within 15 minutes walk of my very suburban house there are two supermarkets, two pharmacies, many restaurants (some fast food but also real restaurants), multiple coffee shops, movie theaters, library & post office, hardware stores, other misc stores, multiple banks & credit unions and other things I'm forgetting to list. One questio…

Norfolk / Virginia Beach, VA: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/36.7727569,-76.0409875/Harri... https://www.google.com/maps/dir/36.7651538,-75.9875131/ALDI,... https://www.google.com/maps/dir/36.695792,-76.2014209/Harris... Charlotte, NC: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/35.1699757,-80.7776553/Publi... https://www.google.com/maps/dir/35.3178445,-80.8026925/Food+... https://www.google.com/maps/dir/35.1256141,-80.764483/H…

Great links, thanks!

The North Carolina ones I wouldn't quite consider a suburb, given the large forested areas and huge lots, that's pretty rural already.

The VA and OK ones are good examples! At least the roads seem nice for cycling.

Las Vegas seems particularly hellish, with the heat probably wouldn't even cycle these routes.

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