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Lessons from the golden age of the mall walkers

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Re: Lessons from the golden age of the mall walkers

#81

Post by presentation »

I used to live in US suburbs, but now live in Tokyo - a lot of older postwar-constructed neighborhoods especially on Chuo Line from Nakano-Kichijoji have covered shopping arcades (shotengai) that are well connected to transit (as one would expect from Tokyo) and really nice to be in - it's like halfway between the accessible/controlled nature of malls (though without air conditioning), and a normal urban setting.

Separately, my suburban hometown in the US seems to be leaning into urbanism, with a (n artificial-feeling) human-scale city development with nice outdoor shopping and mixed use development (apartments, office, and retail space) in the middle of a parking lot and strip mall-dominated wasteland. It feels like that area is boomeing, seems like a trend of these urban islands in the deep suburbs is getting popular (presumably to the detriment of the nearby city itself).

Meanwhile the malls are getting either destroyed, repurposed into other stuff like warehouses, or remain open but have the weirdest niche shops which I don't really understand how they survive. I never liked the feeling of being in a mall, it just feels like a weird commercial dystopia to me when I'm in them, but never thought of them from the perspective of inclusivity and accessibility. Guess the biggest flaw is that they tend to be inconvenient to get to, in places that are inaccessible to start with.

Re: Lessons from the golden age of the mall walkers

#82

Post by presentation »

ars wrote: post #29
webwielder2 wrote: post #3

The lack of large plazas and walkable streets in the US really bums me out. I wish I was European, there I said it.

Europe is pretty small - just pick a small subset of the US that meets your needs and enjoy it. The US has a huge variety. If a small section is good, you don't need the rest to change.

Uh, Europe and the USA have similar area (with Europe being slightly larger). Though Europe has 2.5x the population.

Re: Lessons from the golden age of the mall walkers

#83

Post by starkd »

hedora wrote: post #74
starkd wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Building up lasting institutions is only going to happen from the ground up, starting at the local level. I tend to doubt it can successfully be imposed from the top down - especially not by the government.

What about the national parks service?

Not really a "civic institution". that's a governement agency.

Re: Lessons from the golden age of the mall walkers

#84

Post by eropple »

bluejekyll wrote: post #73
larryett wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is absurd to say there is no place to walk in the suburbs. People just walk on the suburban streets. Most suburban streets are obviously not the highway. I just got back from a walk in the suburbs and passed 5 other people out for their morning walk. I don't think I even passed a car. My impression of mall walking is that it was largely used by people when the weather was bad.

One thing missing in a lot of suburban places is the ability to walk to do chores. Out of curiosity, what destinations do you have within 15 minutes of walking? Can you buy milk? Go to the bank? Have access to a coffee place? Etc. It’s nice to have walking paths, but so many new developments in the US seem to actively make walking a poor option (beyond exercise). The roads in many of these areas even if there is a st…

> One thing missing in a lot of suburban places is the ability to walk to do chores. ... what destinations do you have within 15 minutes of walking? Can you buy milk? Go to the bank? Have access to a coffee place? Etc.

This represents in part a terminology clash, I think, and I think it impacts the discussion a lot. "Suburb" means different things in different parts of the country. I live on the edge of what you'd call "suburbs" around Boston, and yes to all of these; my morning routine is to walk about 7-8 minutes down to the nearest convenience store for a morning beverage and maybe a bagel. It's next to my bank, across the street is a coffee shop and a couple of nice bars. Maybe five minutes past that is a liquor store, an Indian food market, and my auto mechanic.

I can be in downtown Boston, by train, in 30 minutes, but unless I throw on a backpack and walk 2.5 miles round-trip I'm not going to the hardware store or to a full-size grocery store. Which I do, when I have the time, but here's where the overlap with more conventional "suburbs" happens: when I'm walking somewhere, nobody else is. It's totally doable and totally reasonable, even in bad weather, but the locals don't have that mindset, so they don't do it.

Much of what folks like Strongtowns talk about is actually represented pretty well in my New England town, but we're the "burbs" because we're outside the city proper. On the other hand, I've been to places like Des Moines, IA, and the suburbs are just car parks as far as the eye can see.

Re: Lessons from the golden age of the mall walkers

#85

Post by joebob42 »

gsk22 wrote: post #20
refurb wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bizarre take. Most suburbs I’ve seen is actually amazing for walking in. Sure if there is no sidewalk it sucks, but if you walk where people live usually there is a nice walking path, minimal traffic, lots of families around. I’ve lived in dense urban centers and walking can suck with the crowded sidewalks, always having to cross streets with cars, the noise. People aren’t walking in malls because of car cu…

This is true in certain American suburbs, but definitely not all. Older and less affluent suburbs, in particular, often have abysmal walking infrastructure. I'm not sure this fits the prototypical suburb -- but I have spent a lot of time in southern Texas, and look at this amazing pedestrian infrastructure: https://www.google.com/maps/@26.1413614,-97.9581625,3a,75y,3... They recently (past ~5 years) installed new ADA…

There's also what looks like a perfectly lovely park a few blocks away

Re: Lessons from the golden age of the mall walkers

#86

Post by chrisco255 »

antiterra wrote: post #75

I think the anti-mall narrative is generally misplaced. Suburban malls were a mitigation of sprawl but are somehow viewed more as a direct symptom. Strip malls continue to thrive, and the form where there are residences atop the commercial storefronts does little to improve the need to flit from parking lot to parking lot like consumerist pollinators. In Austin, there’s a huge amount of development at the mixed-use o…

The Domain seems to be better off than Barton Creek mall. Went there recently and a lot of stores were empty. Even Starbucks moved out.

Re: Lessons from the golden age of the mall walkers

#87

Post by ghaff »

chrisco255 wrote: post #86
antiterra wrote: post #75

I think the anti-mall narrative is generally misplaced. Suburban malls were a mitigation of sprawl but are somehow viewed more as a direct symptom. Strip malls continue to thrive, and the form where there are residences atop the commercial storefronts does little to improve the need to flit from parking lot to parking lot like consumerist pollinators. In Austin, there’s a huge amount of development at the mixed-use o…

The Domain seems to be better off than Barton Creek mall. Went there recently and a lot of stores were empty. Even Starbucks moved out.

Malls are generally dependent on anchor stores drawing traffic. And a lot of the historic anchor stores--in many cases department stores--have gone out of business or downsized. One pretty dead mall near me had a Penney's, a Sears, and a Macy's.

Re: Lessons from the golden age of the mall walkers

#88

Post by WalterBright »

bcrosby95 wrote: post #71
jmyeet wrote: post #7

The real lesson of mall walking is that it came about because in many places there's literally nowhere else you can walk. Non-Americans may be vaguely aware that America has a sickness of car dependency but may be unaware of the extent of it. I present to you the 26 lane Katy Freeway in Houston, Texas [1]. Non-Americans may not realize just how large these cities are geographically. I believe one end of the Houston m…

Not all suburbs are complete car dependence. Plenty of kids biked in their suburbs in the '80s and '90s. In the '90s I would alternate between biking and walking to and from a school that was 2.5 miles away. And within that 2.5 miles there was plenty of things for me to do. Since then, I've lived in about 7 different US suburbs. All had things to do within about 1.5 miles of where I lived, and I wasn't exactly aiming…

In the area where I live, the schools are in easy walking distance. I never see kids walk or bike to school.

Re: Lessons from the golden age of the mall walkers

#89

Post by jancsika »

Markoff wrote: post #38
tomcam wrote: post #33

> After police officers removed elderly Korean Americans from a McDonald’s in Flushing, Queens — managers claimed the group overstayed their welcome, buying only coffee and french fries Before you judge McDonald’s… this is a thing in Asia. Talk privately to someone who works in a Shanghai Walmart, IKEA, and so on, and you will learn that massive groups of these freeloading aunties can shut down any business with a fr…

Since when job should be fun? Who cares they are rude? It's not like there is some law you must be nice to employee, especially if they are bothering you. Lived in China for years and yes, IKEA in Beijing is occupied by families enjoying bedrooms and living rooms, sleeping there, hanging there, but I've never seen it as issue and never seen any conflicts, that's just how it works there and I can understand these peop…

> These both may seem outrageous to American SJW

Yes-- for far too long we've been putting up with these insufferable American SJWs and their reflexive defense of the private property rights of megacorporations to refuse service to loiterers?

I unironically love this definition of SJW and vow to use it in all future HN posts where I can shoe-horn it in.

Edit: clarification

Re: Lessons from the golden age of the mall walkers

#90

Post by antiterra »

chrisco255 wrote: post #86
antiterra wrote: post #75

I think the anti-mall narrative is generally misplaced. Suburban malls were a mitigation of sprawl but are somehow viewed more as a direct symptom. Strip malls continue to thrive, and the form where there are residences atop the commercial storefronts does little to improve the need to flit from parking lot to parking lot like consumerist pollinators. In Austin, there’s a huge amount of development at the mixed-use o…

The Domain seems to be better off than Barton Creek mall. Went there recently and a lot of stores were empty. Even Starbucks moved out.

I agree, it is doing much better, it has hotels, large office spaces and housing. What it’s really missing is a larger car free area. The roads aren’t well designed for the volume of traffic they carry: busy crosswalks at four way stops. The drivers are also tense and frustrated and on the edge of road rage when it’s really busy.
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