Lessons from the golden age of the mall walkers • Hacker News Board

Re: Lessons from the golden age of the mall walkers

#71

Post by bcrosby95 » Sat, Jun 11, 2022, 3:10 PM UTC

jmyeet wrote: post #7

The real lesson of mall walking is that it came about because in many places there's literally nowhere else you can walk. Non-Americans may be vaguely aware that America has a sickness of car dependency but may be unaware of the extent of it. I present to you the 26 lane Katy Freeway in Houston, Texas [1]. Non-Americans may not realize just how large these cities are geographically. I believe one end of the Houston m…

Not all suburbs are complete car dependence. Plenty of kids biked in their suburbs in the '80s and '90s. In the '90s I would alternate between biking and walking to and from a school that was 2.5 miles away. And within that 2.5 miles there was plenty of things for me to do.

Since then, I've lived in about 7 different US suburbs. All had things to do within about 1.5 miles of where I lived, and I wasn't exactly aiming for mobility.

This last year, I walked my kid to elementary school every day. It's a 10 minute walk. My 3 neighbors, whose kids go to the same school, drive them.

Re: Lessons from the golden age of the mall walkers

#72

Post by causality0 » Sat, Jun 11, 2022, 3:13 PM UTC

One aspect of shopping malls I feel is vastly underappreciated is how they fulfilled the needs of those of us on the spectrum or who are otherwise antisocial. Shopping malls let us immerse ourselves in socializing people without having any responsibility to engage directly with individuals. I found it quite blissful to be in a crowded space and feel like a social participant without expending any "social battery" to do so. These days I still visit my local mall around Christmas time for the feeling. I find it sad today's teenagers don't get the same experience.

Re: Lessons from the golden age of the mall walkers

#73

Post by bluejekyll » Sat, Jun 11, 2022, 3:20 PM UTC

larryett wrote: post #61

jmyeet wrote: post #7

The real lesson of mall walking is that it came about because in many places there's literally nowhere else you can walk. Non-Americans may be vaguely aware that America has a sickness of car dependency but may be unaware of the extent of it. I present to you the 26 lane Katy Freeway in Houston, Texas [1]. Non-Americans may not realize just how large these cities are geographically. I believe one end of the Houston m…

It is absurd to say there is no place to walk in the suburbs. People just walk on the suburban streets. Most suburban streets are obviously not the highway. I just got back from a walk in the suburbs and passed 5 other people out for their morning walk. I don't think I even passed a car. My impression of mall walking is that it was largely used by people when the weather was bad.

One thing missing in a lot of suburban places is the ability to walk to do chores.

Out of curiosity, what destinations do you have within 15 minutes of walking? Can you buy milk? Go to the bank? Have access to a coffee place? Etc.

It’s nice to have walking paths, but so many new developments in the US seem to actively make walking a poor option (beyond exercise). The roads in many of these areas even if there is a store nearby are upwards of four or five lanes across, and then the stores are setback behind huge parking lots without much protected walking from the street to the store.

Re: Lessons from the golden age of the mall walkers

#74

Post by hedora » Sat, Jun 11, 2022, 4:15 PM UTC

starkd wrote: post #66

phil21 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very mixed feelings about this sort of thing. On one hand, it's practical and seems to immediately offer a minor amount of relief for a very small number of people. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good and all that. On the other hand, the urban design that caused the social fabric of the country to fall apart will remain, causing the problem to continue unabated. You need to fix this before the people get old to ha…

Building up lasting institutions is only going to happen from the ground up, starting at the local level. I tend to doubt it can successfully be imposed from the top down - especially not by the government.

What about the national parks service?

Re: Lessons from the golden age of the mall walkers

#75

Post by antiterra » Sat, Jun 11, 2022, 4:22 PM UTC

I think the anti-mall narrative is generally misplaced.

Suburban malls were a mitigation of sprawl but are somehow viewed more as a direct symptom. Strip malls continue to thrive, and the form where there are residences atop the commercial storefronts does little to improve the need to flit from parking lot to parking lot like consumerist pollinators. In Austin, there’s a huge amount of development at the mixed-use outdoor Domain, some calling it a second downtown. Yet, the thing is peppered with crowded roads. And, it does little to escape triple digit temperatures. It isn’t much of an improvement.

Enclosed urban shopping areas have been around for a long time, from covered arcades and indoor markets to underground malls in cities.

The PATH system in Toronto and RESO in Montreal create decentralized malls that are also ways to navigate a city on foot. Their creation was likely due to harsh winters more than concern about pedestrian traffic mixing with vehicles. They are, admittedly, kind of ugly and sometimes claustrophobic, but they are functional. I know there are underground malls in Manitoba cities for similar reason, but have never been.

I love transit oriented developments like the little villages along the MAX light rail in Portland, but I don’t think there’s any where near enough momentum to spark a fully transit based pattern of development like there has been in Japan. (Some possible reasons/differences are covered in https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S235214652...)

Re: Lessons from the golden age of the mall walkers

#76

Post by hedora » Sat, Jun 11, 2022, 4:23 PM UTC

bcrosby95 wrote: post #71

jmyeet wrote: post #7

The real lesson of mall walking is that it came about because in many places there's literally nowhere else you can walk. Non-Americans may be vaguely aware that America has a sickness of car dependency but may be unaware of the extent of it. I present to you the 26 lane Katy Freeway in Houston, Texas [1]. Non-Americans may not realize just how large these cities are geographically. I believe one end of the Houston m…

Not all suburbs are complete car dependence. Plenty of kids biked in their suburbs in the '80s and '90s. In the '90s I would alternate between biking and walking to and from a school that was 2.5 miles away. And within that 2.5 miles there was plenty of things for me to do. Since then, I've lived in about 7 different US suburbs. All had things to do within about 1.5 miles of where I lived, and I wasn't exactly aiming…

I lived in a subway like you describe. The slightly newer suburbs didn't have sidewalks, and had non-leveled, unmowed (easy to twist your ankle in your 20's) green space moats between each housing subdivision and shopping strip mall.

The poor folks had to cross a narrow, 4 lane car bridge to get to work. There was a bike fatality on that bridge every six months or so.

This was in a city with above average transit and bike trails for the US, but most housing was still gratuitously car dependent.

Re: Lessons from the golden age of the mall walkers

#77

Post by newaccount2021 » Sat, Jun 11, 2022, 4:33 PM UTC

feet wrote: post #68

octokatt wrote: post #49

The lesson I'm taking away from this is if the U.S. wanted to support its increasing senior population and improve the loneliness epidemic [1] _and_ obesity epidemic, buying up malls and retrofitting them into public community spaces would be a huge step in the right direction. [1] https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2018/loneliness-an-epidem...

We could even turn malls into arcologies, walkable and highly social housing and amenities

No post body was provided.

Re: Lessons from the golden age of the mall walkers

#78

Post by Aloha » Sat, Jun 11, 2022, 4:40 PM UTC

hoppyhoppy2 wrote: post #50

jmyeet wrote: post #7

The real lesson of mall walking is that it came about because in many places there's literally nowhere else you can walk. Non-Americans may be vaguely aware that America has a sickness of car dependency but may be unaware of the extent of it. I present to you the 26 lane Katy Freeway in Houston, Texas [1]. Non-Americans may not realize just how large these cities are geographically. I believe one end of the Houston m…

Growing up in northern New England, a lot of mall walkers chose it not because we have too many freeways or lack bike paths, hiking areas, or nature trails, but because walking outdoors can be unpleasant in the dark, frigid, snowy, and often-slippery depths of winter. An icy path may not be a huge deal for someone my age, but the risks are greater for an older person falling from a standing height (e.g.: one in three…

In Texas, walking outdoors can the unpleasant or outright dangerous in summer or frankly winter (in Amarillo certainly). We drive giant tanks because distances are vast here between towns and cities - also because gas tax is low.

Re: Lessons from the golden age of the mall walkers

#79

Post by iso1631 » Sat, Jun 11, 2022, 4:42 PM UTC

starkd wrote: post #67

micromacrofoot wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

or we could build our cities and towns so they are pleasant to walk around in!!!

Most of them were pleasant to walk around in at one time!!!

Certainly not in the days of the horse and cart

Re: Lessons from the golden age of the mall walkers

#80

Post by presentation » Sat, Jun 11, 2022, 4:55 PM UTC

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #59

refurb wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve walked all over US cities. Hell I’ve walked from one side of SF to the other.

Same. But those parts of SF tend to be super unaffordable.

You also have to know them well enough to avoid the shady areas, not look muggable, not be female, not be small, not carry anything that looks remotely valuable, and only walk during daylight hours or else you're taking a significant risk (though all of that didn't save me from random verbal abuse when walking around the city or taking public transit nonetheless). And you have to be cool with places being totally filthy, and regularly cross 6-lane roads on a regular basis (yes, most of SF is like this). Plus you have to have a thick skin to see the abject horrors of homelessness and drug addiction everyday and convince yourself, "yup, this is normal and totally fine".

Yeah, that was fine for me when I was a 20 year old, relatively large man who didn't know that the rest of the world has much more hospitable places for pedestrians and human beings generally, but no thanks today. Kinda depressing that at least from a walkability standpoint it's about as good as it gets for the USA.