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Tesla investigation deepens after more than a dozen US ‘Autopilot’ crashes

theguardian.com

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Re: Tesla investigation deepens after more than a dozen US ‘Autopilot’ crashes

#111

Post by kaba0 »

Domenic_S wrote: post #90
warning26 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the benefit of an auto-drive function if you have to pay constant attention to it? Essentially, autopilot's main value proposition is that you don't need to pay attention to it -- and that's what makes it so dangerous.

As a bay-area commuter, the value prop is not having to micromanage the accelerator/brake/steering wheel in stop-and-go traffic. I did the commute for years in "regular" cars, and I've done it for years with autopilot, and autopilot is without a question a much easier commute. There is a continuum between actively driving the car and falling asleep in the back seat, and AP puts you somewhere on the left side of the m…

But that is a decade old technology available in even low-end cars, and is not responsible for car crashes because it was never marketed as anything more.

Tesla maliciously advertises as much much more than adaptive cruise control, lane assist, etc, which is disgusting on their part.

Re: Tesla investigation deepens after more than a dozen US ‘Autopilot’ crashes

#112

Post by kaba0 »

throwaway320923 wrote: post #14
Manuel_D wrote: post #2

I wonder how many people turn on traditional cruise control and then crash due to neglectful driving. That's what we should be comparing Tesla Autopilot against, we should compare it against the status quo.

It's a good question, and I'm dismayed to see the various knee-jerk reactions to it. Seems to get caught up in the pro/anti-Tesla/Musk/blah noise. No, thank you. Here's the thing - people get in accidents all the time when assistance features like ABS, lane keeping, traction control, TACC, good-old-fashioned dumb cruise control, etc. are actively altering the vehicle's performance and behavior. So when we consider Te…

Tesla is the only one maliciously advertising their tech as something else than what it is. The general public doesn’t understand that the tech is largely the same as in a low-end car.

Re: Tesla investigation deepens after more than a dozen US ‘Autopilot’ crashes

#113

Post by kaba0 »

ActorNightly wrote: post #74
colinmhayes wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla markets their system as autopilot and full self driving. They are misleading people into believing the car is capable of driving itself. No one reads TACC/lane keeping and thinks "cool I can just play on my phone", But tons of tesla owners think that. It's not a coincidence.

Lots of people also buy sport motorcycles, thinking that because it has traction control and ABS means its safe, but then still end up crashing them and getting seriously hurt or dying. Should there be in investigations for motorcycle companies making unsafe bikes? Or is it more the case of certain people in general being predisposed to taking more risks and not realizing the consequences?

That’s a bad faith analogy.

Re: Tesla investigation deepens after more than a dozen US ‘Autopilot’ crashes

#114

Post by kaba0 »

polski-g wrote: post #12
aeternum wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't. You rarely see crashes of other vehicles make the press, but with Teslas you do. Tesla articles get views because of both the Tesla haters and fanboys, makes financial sense for news sites to publish them. That increased press leads to increased investigations.

Tesla has sold more self driving cars than all other manufacturers combined. Of course you would hear more about Tesla.

There are robot vacuums with better self driving capabilities than teslas.

Re: Tesla investigation deepens after more than a dozen US ‘Autopilot’ crashes

#115

Post by kaba0 »

Manuel_D wrote: post #92
PKop wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is Autopilot different than cruise control? Is it used differently? If they're not the same thing why equate them?

They are very similar in my view: they automate part of driving to reduce load on the driver. Traditional cruise control just maintains velocity. My Subaru's adaptive cruise control maintains velocity and controls distance relative to the car ahead. Tesla also keeps your car centered in lane, but is otherwise just adaptive cruise control. There's some more features in the "self-driving" cars, like auto-parking and ov…

Expectations matter. Even if the exact same thing would be sold under different names, calling it autopilot/self-driving is the one that should be called out.

Re: Tesla investigation deepens after more than a dozen US ‘Autopilot’ crashes

#116

Post by kaba0 »

dekhn wrote: post #88
alphabettsy wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Autopilot, which can go many hours before making a very serious accident. Does it concern you that it might provide a false sense of security?

Yes- that's my point. It took me ten minutes to realize my car's technology is unsafe, but from what I can tell, lots of people used FSD Beta enough to consider it reliable enough after a few hours of watching it work more or less OK on a freeway to completely disengage from driving.

It is easy to be “reliable” on a motorway in clear conditions. Yet they manage to hit a goddamn concrete block head on, or steer into the wrong lane.

Let’s say that people are not good at determining a black-box system’s reliability (as it is hard enough to do so with even statistics and hard data)

Re: Tesla investigation deepens after more than a dozen US ‘Autopilot’ crashes

#117

Post by whiplash451 »

Manuel_D wrote: post #28
itsoktocry wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wonder how many people turn on traditional cruise control and then crash due to neglectful driving. That's what we should be comparing Tesla Autopilot against, we should compare it against the status quo. This is so disingenuous. Go on YouTube and search for people "self-driving" in their Teslas, then do the same for people doing anything remotely the same with standard cruise control. Tesla and its fanatics want…

Is this actually a problem with tesla marketing? Or is it a problem with people being dumb? An aircraft autopilot will happily fly you straight into a mountain. It just holds altitude and bearing. Everyone I know with a Tesla exclusively uses autopilot on the highway in between exits. I'm pretty baffled as to how some people think it's fully autonomous driving, and I'm dubious as to how culpable Tesla is for that ign…

As an industrial company, you are responsible for the outcome of people using your products in a reasonable way.

If you are a company building cooking knifes, but sell knifes as sharp as razor blades and people start injuring themselves super badly in their kitchen, saying that "people should be more careful with their kitchen knives" won't get you very far in court and in the public's eyes.

Re: Tesla investigation deepens after more than a dozen US ‘Autopilot’ crashes

#118

Post by sidibe »

ActorNightly wrote: post #79
kube-system wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine if Mary Barra was on TV telling everyone that you could "pretty much drive our cars drunk", and then put in fine print that drunk driving is bad and illegal.

There is a big difference between claiming that "you could just go in the backseat while the car drives itself", and calling your system Autopilot, considering collision avoidance isn't anywhere in the traditional definition of autopilot as it pertains to planes. Don't let your hate for Musk as a person cloud your judgement. These things are not comparable.

> There is a big difference between claiming that "you could just go in the backseat while the car drives itself", and calling your system Autopilot

How about calling your system Full self driving and then sticking with a promotional video that says the driver is only there for legal reasons

Re: Tesla investigation deepens after more than a dozen US ‘Autopilot’ crashes

#119

Post by beepbooptheory »

jstream67 wrote: post #16

Sometimes this stuff just seems like a government shakedown. The NHTSA and the Biden administration in general is bitterly anti Tesla https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-autopilot-fsd-bias-nhtsa-saf... (obviously a biased source -but worth a read)

After all the money the federal government gave Tesla and everything now they treat them like this, it just doesn't make sense!

Re: Tesla investigation deepens after more than a dozen US ‘Autopilot’ crashes

#120

Post by lolc »

zionic wrote: post #104
lolc wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The environment matters. An aircraft autopilot will allow the pilot to safely disengage while in controlled airspace. A Tesla "Autopilot" will not let the driver disengage in any situation.

>A Tesla "Autopilot" will not let the driver disengage in any situation. Um, what? A driver can override Tesla autopilot at any time.

Clearly, it must be possible to disengage the Tesla "Autopilot" at any time. Because it can fuck up any second.

I was talking about freeing the pilot from maintaining situational awareness. This is not supported for drivers of Tesla vehicles; the term "autopilot" is misleading in that context.

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