Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#171

Post by brandoncordell » Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 5:08 PM UTC

Why so serious?

Companies put little jokes and pokes in their job searches all the time. Do you think the company is really going to turn down applicants because they're not "brogrammers". It's certainly silly to assume so.

Did you even read the full post? Here is what it says verbatim:

* You are a fan (or future fan) of Brogramming on Facebook. (Non-Bros are still welcome to apply)

That in no certain terms has anything to do with gender. I'm a male and would not be considered a "brogrammer". What if they said they were looking for the King of all Rubyists? Does that mean they would hire a female because by technicality she couldn't be a king?

Sorry I just think this thread is ridiculous.

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#172

Post by lemming » Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 5:08 PM UTC

rprime wrote: post #88

ia wrote: post #69

maybe they are going for cultural fit, first and foremost. if you were offended by this job advert, it's likely you wouldn't be a good fit. why hide company culture by writing a stiff and sterile ad? i'm not saying what they did was good or bad, unless they are actually breaking laws in the post--then it's bad. other than that, if you don't like the way they phrased things, don't apply.

Exactly my thoughts, I really like that they actually exposed their cultural thoughts on this one, I hope to see this kind of trend in job postins more and it really makes me want to join that respective company. On the other hand I don't understand, why, most of you, as males are really getting mad about this? Why do you feel offended? If you have a female programmer friend, ask her about this and make her post thei…

On the other hand I don't understand, why, most of you, as males are really getting mad about this?

So you think that I, as a whitey, shouldn't be offended by racism? And that I, as an atheist, shouldn't find religious persecution offensive?

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#173

Post by ohyes » Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 5:16 PM UTC

Devil's advocate here. I agree it is sexist and unprofessional and not how I would word a recruitment post.

That said, it seems to be a reference to an internet meme.

http://www.facebook.com/getwiththebrogram

They also say pretty clearly that non-bros are welcome to apply (I'm male and I consider myself a non-bro). It also does not say that being a Brogrammer actually entails that you be male. (Admittedly, it could be interpreted that way). They are trying to show a work-hard/play-hard mentality, and maybe a little playful immaturity.

All of this said, I think if they are willing to accept responsibility for the repercussions of the job posting, there is no reason to abridge their free speech. Whether this particular posting is a good idea for them as a company (w/r/t investors, image, actually recruiting the best people rather than people who are 'fun') is another matter.

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#174

Post by tripzilch » Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 5:16 PM UTC

ia wrote: post #87

mattmanser wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason there's a law against it is because bigots that still exist keep women from attaining equality and that's bad, not the other way around. It is in itself bad. You have a strange moral compass to me. I know it's fun to be laddish when you're at college and uni, but cultural fit can often be a polite way of saying 'Hey, I'm a bigot, women are stupid and I'm not employing them above the level of secretary!'. I…

Can you explain your first sentence? I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I'm not defending bigotry/sexism/etc. Hopefully, you didn't take my comment that way.

Well, you said it was only bad if it is actually against the law.

Which is a strange moral compass, because lots of bad things are not against the law (and with good reason).

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#175

Post by noodle » Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 5:19 PM UTC

ohyes wrote: post #173

Devil's advocate here. I agree it is sexist and unprofessional and not how I would word a recruitment post. That said, it seems to be a reference to an internet meme. http://www.facebook.com/getwiththebrogram They also say pretty clearly that non-bros are welcome to apply (I'm male and I consider myself a non-bro). It also does not say that being a Brogrammer actually entails that you be male. (Admittedly, it could b…

> it seems to be a reference to an internet meme.

it is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi_AAqi0RZM

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#176

Post by davidhansen » Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 5:20 PM UTC

jessedhillon wrote: post #122

davidhansen wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a political site so I'm not going to debate the merits/drawbacks of outlawing bigotry in hiring practices. But one thing that ought to be pointed out is that free markets tend to punish companies, over the long term, that intentionally deny themselves access to talent due to bigotry. Conversely, companies who acquire talent with rational screening procedures will have a competitive advantage over those wh…

Evidence? I know free market theory sounds like the most plainly obvious, common sense set of statements but you still have to justify your conclusions. You are asserting without proof that the market is full of completely rational agents.

I am not asserting that the market is full of completely rational agents. I am asserting that voluntarily excluding yourself from a resource pool or limiting your access to a resource pool will decrease your likelihood of success.

To give an analogy, if you have access to all the food you want, but you voluntarily limit yourself to kumquats and bananas for arbitrary, irrational reasons, in the long run you will develop health problems.

Likewise, a business that irrationally limits itself to a subset of all available talent will, in aggregate, lose out to those who are not thus limited.

I admit to not having citations of statistical evidence at hand, although I have seen many publications in the past that indicate diversity of employee populations is correlated with innovation and success. I did not provide evidence because I believe as a Gedankenexperiment, the conclusion is self-evident.

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#177

Post by ebiester » Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 5:24 PM UTC

irahul wrote: post #146

dgabriel wrote: post #90

Woman programmer here: I automatically assumed they were looking for college aged men. "Brogrammer," is not a unisex term, no matter how they try to spin it.

> "Brogrammer," is not a unisex term, no matter how they try to spin it. No one sensible would try to spin it as unisex. I think it's simply an oversight on their part - more stronger than addressing a gathering "hey guys", but on the same lines.

But that's the point -- that kind of oversight happens because of male privilege. It's because it's easy to think of programmers as men, so much that you have an "oversight" about including women.

That excludes women, and that's exactly what this kind of stuff needs to be called out. The problem isn't always one data point; but rather, there are a lot of these data points that are easy to dismiss one by one, but lead up to an avalanche when collectively viewed.

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#178

Post by dantheman » Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 5:29 PM UTC

jessedhillon wrote: post #122

davidhansen wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a political site so I'm not going to debate the merits/drawbacks of outlawing bigotry in hiring practices. But one thing that ought to be pointed out is that free markets tend to punish companies, over the long term, that intentionally deny themselves access to talent due to bigotry. Conversely, companies who acquire talent with rational screening procedures will have a competitive advantage over those wh…

Evidence? I know free market theory sounds like the most plainly obvious, common sense set of statements but you still have to justify your conclusions. You are asserting without proof that the market is full of completely rational agents.

It's not that markets are completely rational at all, it comes from supply and demand. If you exclude a large portion of your supply the price will go up. For example, if I only higher people greater than 6 feet at my company, and my competitor doesn't care about height -- the wages will be lower, unless of course tall people are the cheapest to hire already.

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#179

Post by rprime » Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 6:05 PM UTC

mzbridget wrote: post #113

rprime wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly my thoughts, I really like that they actually exposed their cultural thoughts on this one, I hope to see this kind of trend in job postins more and it really makes me want to join that respective company. On the other hand I don't understand, why, most of you, as males are really getting mad about this? Why do you feel offended? If you have a female programmer friend, ask her about this and make her post thei…

We do have a problem with this. We aren't whining. I asked some male friends about this just now and they think its shameful. It basically reads: "We are looking for male programmers, females need not reply." Yeah, just stick us back into the secretarial pool.

Well, see, here's the difference, it counts how you see the glass, full or empty. From my point of view, and I assume theirs, that's simply a joke that most of you got serious.

I was just asking for a female programmer to tell that she's having a problem with this, not a dude.

Probably I haven't exposed my ideas in a correct and coherent way, but I am tired and english is not my main. But trust me, I know a lot of women that are programmers, at some I look up to, and those who aren't I try to help them integrate, we need really need female programmers, because we, as males, can never achieve their way of thinking.

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#180

Post by jeremyarussell » Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 6:17 PM UTC

mattmanser wrote: post #42

ryanmarsh wrote: post #19

Maybe, who gives a fuck?

This is my way of flagging an unflaggable post. Hell, I love memes, Reddit, drinking, partying, etc. But is that a professional or appropriate job advert for HN? Do we want to be a community which actively cultivates a 'no girls allowed' policy?

I can't find the post, I think it was taken down or some such. In any case I've seen some quotes that clearly state "non-bros" are welcome to apply as well. In my opinion, (and I am only playing devil's advocate.)

If you're asking if they were sexist. (once again I haven't read it nor can I find it, I'm going off what everyone else has quoted.) Then it would seem safe to say no, what with them saying that it's not only "brogrammers" that can apply. I would also go as far to say that this post should be considered good if nothing else then the brutal honesty given. They party, they get "crunk" they brogram, which is to say they are comrades that support each other and like minded individuals. Is that bad? Not inherently so. Is it immature? I think they made sure everyone knew that was the case.

Also I forgot this part, to answer the question posted, (my bad.)

Do we want a community of people that supports a no girl allowed rule? Um hell no, I like women, generally they have ideas that I don't consider because I'm a male, my DNA and my social upbringing made me who I am, which is different then who anyone else is. I don't feel like that's what they were trying to do though.