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Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

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Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#91

Post by ia »

CodeMage wrote: post #81
ia wrote: post #69

maybe they are going for cultural fit, first and foremost. if you were offended by this job advert, it's likely you wouldn't be a good fit. why hide company culture by writing a stiff and sterile ad? i'm not saying what they did was good or bad, unless they are actually breaking laws in the post--then it's bad. other than that, if you don't like the way they phrased things, don't apply.

Hey, that's great logic. Remind me to start a company where we have a dedicated "porn-watching hour", too. I'm sure it will make for a spectacular ad and attract a lot of serious talent.

If that's the type of person you're looking to hire (say, for a porn site...), not sure why you wouldn't do this. Assuming, again, that you aren't breaking any laws. Not sure what point you were trying to make. Sarcasm doesn't translate well in writing...

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#92

Post by davidhansen »

mattmanser wrote: post #77
ia wrote: post #69

maybe they are going for cultural fit, first and foremost. if you were offended by this job advert, it's likely you wouldn't be a good fit. why hide company culture by writing a stiff and sterile ad? i'm not saying what they did was good or bad, unless they are actually breaking laws in the post--then it's bad. other than that, if you don't like the way they phrased things, don't apply.

The reason there's a law against it is because bigots that still exist keep women from attaining equality and that's bad, not the other way around. It is in itself bad. You have a strange moral compass to me. I know it's fun to be laddish when you're at college and uni, but cultural fit can often be a polite way of saying 'Hey, I'm a bigot, women are stupid and I'm not employing them above the level of secretary!'. I…

This is not a political site so I'm not going to debate the merits/drawbacks of outlawing bigotry in hiring practices.

But one thing that ought to be pointed out is that free markets tend to punish companies, over the long term, that intentionally deny themselves access to talent due to bigotry. Conversely, companies who acquire talent with rational screening procedures will have a competitive advantage over those who use irrational screening procedures.

It's a sort of corporate karma. In aggregate, bigotry in hiring procedures will eventually harm you, legal or not.

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#94

Post by bbrizzi »

felideon wrote: post #18
bbrizzi wrote: post #11

I agree that the post's title is not very tactful or professional but I don't think it's sexist. The term "bro" refers to values like fraternity and solidarity. Even the word fraternity comes from the latin frater which means brother but "fraternity" is not a male-only concept. I myself consider some girls to be my "bros" even though I wouldn't use that term, but I agree in the values it conveys. Additionally, if a g…

Please google the term "brogrammer". You are defending the post (or playing devil's advocate) by implying a meaning that is not really the currently held inferred meaning. (As far as I'm aware.)

Ah, I didn't know it was a "thing". Looking it up comforts the idea that the post is silly and childish.

I was indeed playing devil's advocate: it's not because the ad is clumsily worded that its author's intent was to exclude females.

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#95

Post by hack_edu »

If you asked me to define 'brogrammer' prior to reading this thread and learning of the meme, I'd probably have described your typical technical cofounder of a generic 2011 startup.

It doesn't help that the linked post _is_ a YC startup too... and they're one of those "startups for startups!"

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#96

Post by jdminhbg »

There is kind of a weird irony gap going on here -- to me it seems unremarkably obvious that all of the over-the-top language in the posting is tongue-in-cheek. Do people think they actually plan to "get crunk"? Programmers are stereotypically un-hip; the whole "brogrammer" meme is a deliberate poke at the incongruity of someone hunched over their keyboard 14 hours a day, yet drinking Natty Lights while wearing popped collars. It is kind of hard for me to believe that so many posters here believe that their office culture literally resembles the Jersey Shore house.

That said, the instant gender reaction the word "brogrammer" provokes means it's kind of a terrible choice for a job ad. Whether they meant it to exclude women or not (I would put millions of dollars on a bet on the latter), I wouldn't want to be defending it to the finely-tuned ironists on the EEOC.

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#97

Post by Sapient »

drivingmenuts wrote: post #68
RobSpectre wrote: post #45

Brogramming is just a joke. And like all Internet jokes, they end up misused in job postings as a result of the author's effort to appear relevant. I think this YC-funded startup is likely more guilty of tone-deafness rather than misogyny.

I almost stopped reading the ad at "we like to party". I did stop reading at "get crunk". Serious, that's how they're blowing their startup money?

Yep, crunk was where I stopped as well. Nothing else in the ad really offended my delicate sensibilities until that.

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#98

Post by mikeryan »

ia wrote: post #87
mattmanser wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason there's a law against it is because bigots that still exist keep women from attaining equality and that's bad, not the other way around. It is in itself bad. You have a strange moral compass to me. I know it's fun to be laddish when you're at college and uni, but cultural fit can often be a polite way of saying 'Hey, I'm a bigot, women are stupid and I'm not employing them above the level of secretary!'. I…

Can you explain your first sentence? I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I'm not defending bigotry/sexism/etc. Hopefully, you didn't take my comment that way.

I'm not defending bigotry/sexism/etc

You're defending the ad. By extension defending any sexism contained within it (actual sexism TBD).

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#99

Post by CodeMage »

ia wrote: post #91
CodeMage wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, that's great logic. Remind me to start a company where we have a dedicated "porn-watching hour", too. I'm sure it will make for a spectacular ad and attract a lot of serious talent.

If that's the type of person you're looking to hire (say, for a porn site...), not sure why you wouldn't do this. Assuming, again, that you aren't breaking any laws. Not sure what point you were trying to make. Sarcasm doesn't translate well in writing...

I daresay it translated well enough for a couple of people already. The point I was trying to make is that the goal of a job ad is to attract talent. The job ad in question fails at that goal, because the cultural implications will drive away talent. To be fair, it's not a job ad that fails here, it's the culture that came up with that job ad.

All in all, you might be right in that they might have put "cultural fit" as their #1 priority, but that doesn't make it a good decision. Saying that the alternative is "a stiff and sterile ad" is a fallacy of false dichotomy.

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#100

Post by atomical »

jdminhbg wrote: post #96

There is kind of a weird irony gap going on here -- to me it seems unremarkably obvious that all of the over-the-top language in the posting is tongue-in-cheek. Do people think they actually plan to "get crunk"? Programmers are stereotypically un-hip; the whole "brogrammer" meme is a deliberate poke at the incongruity of someone hunched over their keyboard 14 hours a day, yet drinking Natty Lights while wearing poppe…

Getting crunk "at least once a month" isn't all that hip or crunk.
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