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Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

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Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#131

Post by grot »

To properly answer the question "is brogrammer a sexist term", I think it's important to distinguish -- for a moment -- what a sexist term might be.

1. Is a term sexist when the speaker intends to be sexist?

2. Or is the term sexist when others interpret to be?

3. Or is a term sexist in some other more subtle way?

Some answers:

1. No idea

2. This varies. I know people here are saying brogrammer is an internet meme, but I've met plenty of start-up people that seem to enjoy various components of the meme -- polo shirts, bad sunglasses, incoherent misogyny.

3. This one is hard, and there are several conflicting possibilities.

a) Usage of the word "brogrammer" (whether in jest, or not) could be good (for gender relations), if it is successfully used ironically, or if it somehow signifies the irrelevance of gender.

I don't think either of these are true. Popping your collar is not irony. It might be a good halloween gimmick, but it's not irony.

And as for brogramming signifying a post-gender binary world, uh, no, come on?

b) The alternative is what I believe to be true, posts like this, regardless of intent reveal a serious cultural insensitivity. Whoever wrote it doesn't care if they offend you. They don't care if it sounds sexist, and they probably don't care if they _are_ sexist.

This is very antisocial behavior, and it deserves disapprobation just for that.

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#132

Post by banane »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #32
felideon wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please google the term "brogrammer". You are defending the post (or playing devil's advocate) by implying a meaning that is not really the currently held inferred meaning. (As far as I'm aware.)

Explain. I can't find any definition of "brogrammer" that isn't a portmanteau of "bro" and "programmer". And "bro" is not a gender-specific term any more than "milkman".

My understanding is that it came from Facebook's core of post-collegiate boy programmers.

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#133

Post by blhack »

jdminhbg wrote: post #96

There is kind of a weird irony gap going on here -- to me it seems unremarkably obvious that all of the over-the-top language in the posting is tongue-in-cheek. Do people think they actually plan to "get crunk"? Programmers are stereotypically un-hip; the whole "brogrammer" meme is a deliberate poke at the incongruity of someone hunched over their keyboard 14 hours a day, yet drinking Natty Lights while wearing poppe…

I know people who would salivate at the idea of an office that resembles the Jersey Shore house, and they're programmers.

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#134

Post by cjukjones »

dgabriel wrote: post #90

Woman programmer here: I automatically assumed they were looking for college aged men. "Brogrammer," is not a unisex term, no matter how they try to spin it.

Another woman programmer here: This is exactly what I assumed and I agree there is no way it can be considered a unisex term. I would assume the culture at the company is immature and not a place a woman programmer would want to work anyway, so I would avoid applying for any position at this company.

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#135

Post by pyre »

davidhansen wrote: post #92
mattmanser wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason there's a law against it is because bigots that still exist keep women from attaining equality and that's bad, not the other way around. It is in itself bad. You have a strange moral compass to me. I know it's fun to be laddish when you're at college and uni, but cultural fit can often be a polite way of saying 'Hey, I'm a bigot, women are stupid and I'm not employing them above the level of secretary!'. I…

This is not a political site so I'm not going to debate the merits/drawbacks of outlawing bigotry in hiring practices. But one thing that ought to be pointed out is that free markets tend to punish companies, over the long term, that intentionally deny themselves access to talent due to bigotry. Conversely, companies who acquire talent with rational screening procedures will have a competitive advantage over those wh…

  > one thing that ought to be pointed out is that free
  > markets tend to punish companies, over the long term,
  > that intentionally deny themselves access to talent
  > due to bigotry.
If this happens on a large enough scale, then it's hard to quantify. If this happens enough that it keeps the number of women in tech low, then how can you really quantify what they are missing out on? It would be easier to quantify if there was a large number of skilled female programmers, but if they are discouraged from even reaching the point of becoming skilled/competent programmers...

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#137

Post by jubbam »

ia wrote: post #111
CodeMage wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I daresay it translated well enough for a couple of people already. The point I was trying to make is that the goal of a job ad is to attract talent. The job ad in question fails at that goal, because the cultural implications will drive away talent. To be fair, it's not a job ad that fails here, it's the culture that came up with that job ad. All in all, you might be right in that they might have put "cultural fit"…

Saying that the alternative is "a stiff and sterile ad" is a fallacy of false dichotomy. fair enough. to clarify--"a stiff and sterile ad" is the only type of add that won't alienate any possible subgroup. the goal of a job ad is not simply to "attract talent". it's to attract the right kind of talent. to that end, a job ad that emphasizes culture is one way to look for it. these guys made a choice, and it looks like…

Probably not a success from their point of view but from my point of view it's a great ad. It convinced me immediately not to waste any time pursuing the opportunity.

In addition, I can say that the only reason I'd care to know who the stealth company is is so I can avoid giving any thought to working for/with them later on or reading any later (probably toned down) job postings.

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#138

Post by pyre »

Even if this was inadvertent, the idea that the ad reads like:

  BROGRAMMERS COME WORK HERE

  (fine print: non-bros can apply too)
This comes across like:

1. The writer of the ad had in mind a college-aged male as the target audience.

2. The 'non-bros can apply' part seems like an after thought. It makes it seem like someone that's a 'brogrammer' will get to the top of the list, and others will be looked at after the list of 'brogrammers' is exhausted.

3. It indicates a sort of Reddit/Frathouse-ish company culture, which women might not want to apply to any ways. (So some of the commentary could also be on whether or not we want to encourage such cultures in our industry, but that's stretching a bit from the original ad).

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#139

Post by banane »

natrius wrote: post #66
mattmanser wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is my way of flagging an unflaggable post. Hell, I love memes, Reddit, drinking, partying, etc. But is that a professional or appropriate job advert for HN? Do we want to be a community which actively cultivates a 'no girls allowed' policy?

"Do we want to be a community which actively cultivates a 'no girls allowed' policy?" That's not fair. An unwise attempt at humor isn't actively cultivating such a policy. It may be inadvertently fostering such an environment, but so many comments are busy casting aspersions on the job poster without addressing that issue.

Humor sometimes conveys the real meaning- and in this job post, it is undeniably, No Girls Allowed. Those that think "brogrammer" means anything more deep or nuanced is giving the poster a whole lot of leeway. If they wanted a more diverse (age, sex, even race) they'd convey a different culture.

This is one of those things in the Valley that I really hate (I'm a ho-grammer). The immature attitude - up there with "rockstar" postings. Is there anything in the ad about the tech? Oh right, because it's "stealth" (another annoying Valley thing). I am also wary of a company that feels the need to state that programmers get some sleep. Really? The reality is that they're going to get tons of applicants because it's a recession. The applicants are going to be eager and inexperienced, probably not from here. The poster didn't evenhave to use brogrammer to get 95% men applying- that's roughly the % of men in the CA-Bay Area industry.

The new hires are going to work for a bit, the start-up will fizzle to nothing, but in the meantime the brogrammer will learn how to party in SF, go to strip clubs, get crunk, work hungover, and write passable code. He'd doubtless leave with a few great connections, and then starting or join another startup, where he'll fondly remember the ad that got him here and post a similar one. A kid just out of a midwestern school will see it and buy a cheap one-way ticket to SF. Like begets like (another thing that annoys me about SV). The monoculture continues.

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#140

Post by strlen »

ia wrote: post #69

maybe they are going for cultural fit, first and foremost. if you were offended by this job advert, it's likely you wouldn't be a good fit. why hide company culture by writing a stiff and sterile ad? i'm not saying what they did was good or bad, unless they are actually breaking laws in the post--then it's bad. other than that, if you don't like the way they phrased things, don't apply.

> if you were offended by this job advert, it's likely you wouldn't be a good fit

So a company decides that most female engineers wouldn't be a good fit?

It's fairly obvious that using it in a job ad (as opposed to using it in a self-deprecating way to joke about yourself: how the term started) has the effect of alienating female developers.

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