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The Last Question

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Re: The Last Question

#131
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must be fun at parties.

Wait, you're complaining that earthboundkid is sucking the fun out of an Isaac Asimov story by dissecting the ideas held within it? I think you may find you have accidentally arrived at the wrong party.

> I think you may find you have accidentally arrived at the wrong party.

Definitely - I thought I was at the SF party, not the Skeptics party.

I mean, of course the story defies physics. As do over 90% of Asimov's stories. As do most SF stories. Talking about these things is like going to a party to watch the soccer World Cup final and pontificating over how much better soccer would be if you could use your hands to hold the ball and run.

Re: The Last Question

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite true, but that's not something unique to Asimov. Applied Phlebotinum [1] is a common device in Science Fiction whenever the science can't support a plot device required by the fiction (SF narratives are stories in the first place, after all). There's even a trope specifically for how hyperspace and subspace are used in that way.[2] [1] https://tropedia.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Applied_Phlebotinu... [2] https://…

Why would you link the the super ad-ridden and obnoxious fandom copy of a TV Tropes article?

Because TV Tropes has severe licensing problems[1] - most of its content originally was submitted by its editors under a CC BY-SA license, but then the site maintainer relicensed (without permission) all its database under the incompatible CC BY-NC-SA, creating a situation where its content can't be legally redistributed.

I use adblocking so I didn't notice the ads; if you prefer, you may check it[1] at AllTheTropes,[2] the initial fork that kept the content under its original legal license. Though as far as I understand it, that project migrated to Tropedia and it is no longer maintained, which is why I linked there instead.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_Tropes#Licensing_and_conten...

[2] https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Category:Applied_Phlebotinum

[3] https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Main_Page

Re: The Last Question

#133
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have now read it. Interesting. The main theme is not entirely new to me; without spoiling anything, I hope I can say that the long-form, not yet finished web comic Gunnerkrigg Court[0] touches on a very similar idea as one of its main themes. [0] https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1

he wrote this long time ago...

Yes, obviously if there was any direct influence, it was from Asimov to the web comic author, not the other way round.

Re: The Last Question

#134
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s actually not the “hug of death” that I fondly remember happening more often (although that too was undoubtedly more common) but finding cool, weird, niche topics on the internet that I didn’t know before and were really fascinating.

When you were young, more things were novel.

Probably at least partially just that! As I said it was my subjective perception.

Re: The Last Question

#135
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, this story is just exceptionally good. Asimov was a fine writer, but this story was his crowning achievement in short fiction and he knew it too. You can read his other things and none of them will give the same feeling. Nightfall is a decent story though. But yeah, The Last Question is in a league of its own. It's one of my favorite short stories ever along with The Library of Babel by Borges, The Great Automat…

If you like these kind of "Mind blown", "Goose bumps" stories, read some Ted Chiang. Really stories that stick with you. I love this whole book: [0] If you like a bit longer stories, try some Greg Egan. Or, his book with short stories is also really nice: [1] [0]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/223380.Stories_of_Your_L... [1]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/156783.Axiomatic

I want to second or third the recommendation for Ted Chiang. Basically all of Chiang's stories could go on any "best short stories" list.

Re: The Last Question

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is sometimes presented as a "gotcha" question, but it's really the whole core premise of monotheism. Looking around, it appears that everything has a cause, and every cause has further causes. Can the chain of causes extend back infinitely? Assuming the chain is infinite, is there a cause for the infinite chain itself? We must posit that there is something which is, unlike everything else observed, an uncaused c…

>We must posit that there is something which is, unlike everything else observed, an uncaused cause. Why so ? there is another alternative: that a cause is its own cause. This is like in some programming languages where everything is an object, classes are just objects whose classes are metaclasses , and those metaclasses are just objects whose classes are... themselves. So God might be created, its creator is just (…

Being self-caused and being a causeless cause aren't very different, and I think for the most part one can ignore whatever theoretical differences exist between them, because nothing in ordinary experience is either self-caused or causeless, so either way, we're positing something extraordinary as the cause of ordinary existence.

However I suspect self-causation is the wrong way to look at it. In the case of Python metaclasses and such, the self-referentiality is created by a pointer. The metaclass doesn't actually contain itself; it contains a pointer to itself (Python makes this a little obscure, but all objects in Python are really pointers to C structs). To be self-causing though isn't like following a pointer. The relevant operation is not following the reference back to the cause, the relevant operation is _causing_. You can sort of get around it with time travel, but then the thing isn't causing itself, strictly. Rather thing from T2 is causing thing at T1.

(In fact, Buddhist analysis of causation is very good on just this point: when we really look closely at causation, we find that all causing must be self-discharging and immediate, which means all things are empty of inherent existence. You can get back to monotheism, as some flavors of Buddhism do, by positing this ground of causation as Buddha Nature.)

>such a cause must be infinitely good

This is a mathematically proven fact, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel%27s_ontological_proof

In general, I recommend Boethius's Consolations of Philosophy as a good primer on Neoplatonism and why the One and the Good must be identical.

>Atheism is older than religion.

No, not believing in specific gods is older than religion. Atheism is a specific doctrine that originates in the eighteenth century as part of a garbled transmission of Confucianism to the West and newfound scientific interest in materialism. To be an atheist isn't to say Zeus or Odin or Yahweh don't exist. You can be extremely religious and deny the existence of any named god! Indeed, that is the height of piety, to humbly submit that you don't and can't know God's name. To be an atheist is to say that the Good as such doesn't exist and the world is fundamentally physical. (However, there's no good definition of physicalism that doesn't lapse into circularity or absurdities…) There are very few true atheists. To really be an atheist, to use Lacanian terminology, is to not believe in any Big Other, but doing that requires an unusual degree of vigilance. Everyone is always letting in some Big Other, but saying that their Big Other isn't like the other Big Others.

The problem of evil is just that problem that whatever good it is that God is interested in and whatever good it is that we are interested in must be different goods. But of course this is so. Why wouldn't it be? The question (again, getting back to Daoism) is whether our good is subsumable under God's good, or whether to exist as ourselves we must tragically oppose whatever it is that God's goodness is and so ultimately perish.

Re: The Last Question

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did God create the substrate he exists in?

This is sometimes presented as a "gotcha" question, but it's really the whole core premise of monotheism. Looking around, it appears that everything has a cause, and every cause has further causes. Can the chain of causes extend back infinitely? Assuming the chain is infinite, is there a cause for the infinite chain itself? We must posit that there is something which is, unlike everything else observed, an uncaused c…

> This is sometimes presented as a "gotcha" question, but it's really the whole core premise of monotheism.

Well sure, if you've already accepted the core premise of monotheism you're probably not wondering about that gotcha question or its implications.

Re: The Last Question

#138
Can anybody recommend an anthology available on Kindle that contains this story? Ideally Asimov only, but fine if it also contains stories by others. I couldn't easily find one. Thanks!

Re: The Last Question

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did God create the substrate he exists in?

This is sometimes presented as a "gotcha" question, but it's really the whole core premise of monotheism. Looking around, it appears that everything has a cause, and every cause has further causes. Can the chain of causes extend back infinitely? Assuming the chain is infinite, is there a cause for the infinite chain itself? We must posit that there is something which is, unlike everything else observed, an uncaused c…

That type of cause and effect assumes time already exists. Outside of time, how do you have cause and effect? And time is part of our universe, not outside it. The whole argument is built on sand.

Re: The Last Question

#140
post #76

So I asked Wolfram Alpha: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=Can+entropy+be+reversed

It's nice that WA actually has the right answer (reference to the story itself).

I find the related queries quite funny: "how many calories does ballroom dancing burn?"

Right after I had the answer to the entropy question that would have been my next one :)

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