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Former U.S. congressman, operative pleads guilty to election fraud charges

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Re: Former U.S. congressman, operative pleads guilty to election fraud charges

#801

Post by shadowgovt »

michaelt wrote: post #724
jxramos wrote: post #641

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow so we need some explicit record of abstaining that the voter can submit and check the status on.

Leaving aside the question of whether it's realistic for the system to depend on non-voters checking their vote's status - what would be the procedure if someone claimed they were wrongly shown as having voted? After all, it's easy to imagine a situation where certain groups might want to manufacture evidence of voter fraud.

In Pennsylvania at least, that is handled by the filing of a provisional ballot followed by a court system. One challenge to that solution is that there are hard limits on how long it can take for the election to resolve, so it is possible for that window to close before an investigation on an allegation of voter fraud to complete, and if it cannot be proven that that provisional ballot should be counted, the ballot is discarded.

The recourse should a person's vote be stolen that way is proof that the vote was stolen followed by punishment for the thief, and that punishment can be fairly severe because vote tampering cannot be taken lightly given the impact it can have on the process itself.

Re: Former U.S. congressman, operative pleads guilty to election fraud charges

#802

Post by Ruthalas »

JacobThreeThree wrote: post #564
curiousllama wrote: post #126

> After receiving payments ranging from between $300 to $5,000 per election from Myers, Demuro would add fraudulent votes on the voting machine The most staggering thing for me is how _tiny_ the payments are

Every time I read about someone being bribed, I'm shocked how small the payment is. Humans will sellout for peanuts. Corruption is a huge problem.

To be fair, $300 in peanuts is a lot of peanuts!

Re: Former U.S. congressman, operative pleads guilty to election fraud charges

#803

Post by shadowgovt »

makomk wrote: post #718
cobbzilla wrote: post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Receipts would not have mattered here. The guilty parties were literally casting votes for people they knew would not show up. It’s an identity issue, much harder, and with its own set of controversies.

Yes. Specifically, pro-Democrat media and organisations have spent the last several years arguing that measures to make fraud like this harder, such as unregistering people who aren't living in that state anymore and checking ID when voting, are themselves election rigging. There are endless headlines counting every single entry removed from the electoral roll or even just marked for extra checking as a vote suppress…

The funny thing about politics is that good ideas presented by the wrong source can be rejected because the source is simply untrusted. The concept of rejection of ad hominem attack is great if you are a Greek rhetorical student in the lyceum, and has never been how actual decisions are made.

Regarding this topic, there are historical and recent reasons for suggestions of cleaning, trimming, purging etc. the vote roster to be met with extreme scrutiny and skepticism. The United States simply has a bad history of using tools like that for shaping the electorate to meet a desired outcome.

Re: Former U.S. congressman, operative pleads guilty to election fraud charges

#804

Post by lalaland1125 »

mistermann wrote: post #793
LocalPCGuy wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, individuals just as mistaken as those who claim fraud is rampant claim there is not fraud. People make those kinds of mistaken statements all the time. How about "most reasonable people who understand the process and have spent a little bit of time examining how it works"? I thought that was closer to the standard in discussions on HN, not "some rando on Twitter spouting off", but I guess not. It is not speculat…

I think the centre of the point of contention (and we can work outward from there) can be isolated like so: have there been zero authoritative personnel that have claimed or implied that fraud sufficient to change the outcome of an election is impossible? And while contemplating this idea, remember that we are dealing with human beings.

Nothing is impossible. But the chance of the being sufficient fraud to change say the presidential election is extremely unlikely, especially given the evidence that we have.

Re: Former U.S. congressman, operative pleads guilty to election fraud charges

#805

Post by rayiner »

hef19898 wrote: post #781
rayiner wrote: post #778

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don’t have to update your driver’s license unless you permanently move from one state to another, and even then not really. It won’t stop working. Sure, lots of things were relaxed during the pandemic. But you have to register in person normally, correct?

Unless you change your primary residency you don't have to do anything in Germany. And registering a secondary residency has tax implications but none regarding voting. And why do think your German ID card won't work anymore if the address on it is wrong?

https://www.bmi.bund.de/EN/topics/administrative-reform/regi...

> Anyone who moves into a residence in Germany must register within two weeks of moving in. To register, you have to go to the registration authority of your municipality and present a valid ID card, passport or passport substitute document and a certificate issued by the person providing the residence.

> Persons moving abroad must deregister with the registration authority of their municipality, while those moving within Germany only have to register their new residence. It is not necessary to deregister the former residence.

> Both Germans and foreigners are required to register. Violations of the registration re-quirement are subject to fines.

I didn’t say the German ID card would stop working. But as I understand it, voting is based on your registered address, which must be current to vote, and that residency registration requires showing up in person.

The point is that voting in Germany requires showing up to a registration office with documents every time you move, which is more onerous than presenting an ID to vote in the US. Both voter registration and renewing a driver’s license or changing your address on your license can be done completely online in most states. I’ve only gone in person to deal with my driver’s license twice in my life (I’m almost 40), despite moving almost a dozen times. Once when I got my license as a teenager, and once when I changed my residency permanently from Virginia to Maryland.

Re: Former U.S. congressman, operative pleads guilty to election fraud charges

#806

Post by shadowgovt »

wrycoder wrote: post #593
oneplane wrote: post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is how voting with electronics should be. It's great for entertainment/news etc to get early results but ultimately it doesn't matter if it takes a day or two with analog counting. Same day results really don't help with anything.

The printed paper "ballot" may not be what the voter intended. There are multiple stories of electronic voting machines changing the vote on the screen. The voter corrects it, and the correct ballot is printed. But, if the voter misses the change, then an incorrect ballot is printed. Sometimes, the voter has to correct it more than once. Here in New Hampshire, we use paper ballots marked with a felt tip pen. They are…

The most common cause of mis-vote is operator error. I've watched people use the touchscreen devices; with so many voters both unfamiliar with the mechanics of a touchscreen and unsteady on their feet (the median voter age is about 50), and with the machines made of cheap plastic resting on a table, they grip the machine to stabilize it and themselves. Their gripping thumb rests on the screen and creates phantom signal that makes it hard to localize the touch coordinate.

This is the best argument I'm familiar with against the electronic machines we used to use, and our state switched to paper oval-fill ballots that are then electronically tabulated. But, I haven't seen the statistics yet on how many mis-counts we now have as a result relative to the old system and I'd be curious to see them... Ask yourself how confident you are that 100% of voters know how to successfully fully darken the oval. And since the system is anonymous, nobody looks over their shoulder to verify they understand how to do it before the vote is dropped in the box (though in the event of a close race, a manual recount will be automatically triggered and at that point, at least it'll be human eyes deciding whether the voter circling the oval indicates their intent to vote for that candidate).

Re: Former U.S. congressman, operative pleads guilty to election fraud charges

#807

Post by rayiner »

diffeomorphism wrote: post #784
rayiner wrote: post #778

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don’t have to update your driver’s license unless you permanently move from one state to another, and even then not really. It won’t stop working. Sure, lots of things were relaxed during the pandemic. But you have to register in person normally, correct?

> But you have to register in person. Partially. You can fill out and send all documents online or by mail -- at least in the city I moved to. Then once everything is done you need to make an appointment to stop by and pick up your address sticker and certificate. Having some in person part for ID things seems unavoidable, but nothing onerous.

In America, people would call that process racist voter disenfranchisement. “Black and brown people” don’t have Internet access or stamps, they would assert, and can’t take time off from working three jobs to show up to a citizenship office.

In case you think I’m joking, Joe Biden has claimed that Georgia’s online voter registration (https://registertovote.sos.ga.gov/GAOLVR/welcometoga.do?#no-...) and free Voter ID card (https://dds.georgia.gov/voter) amounts to “the New Jim Crow.”

Re: Former U.S. congressman, operative pleads guilty to election fraud charges

#808

Post by matheweis »

tptacek wrote: post #350
Vladimof wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In Chicagoland, every polling place has a team of 4-5 judges, and they all have to sign off on the final election result but what if they are all from the same party?

First, they can't be from the same party; they're deliberately mixed in Cook County. There's a Republican EJ (usually multiple) in every polling location. Second, the story we're talking about here is about a primary election; the whole contest took place within a single party. Third, I'm not sure why it would matter. OK, they're all Democrats. Now what? Even if all 4 EJs wanted to corrupt the results of an election,…

The report lays out exactly how this was done; it appears that among other things they were casting actual ballots on behalf of unlikely voters.

> Inside the polling place and while the polls were open, Beren would advise actual in-person voters to support Myers’ candidates and also cast fraudulent votes in support of Myers’ preferred candidates on behalf of voters she knew would not or did not physically appear at the polls (emphasis mine)

Re: Former U.S. congressman, operative pleads guilty to election fraud charges

#809

Post by shadowgovt »

mushbino wrote: post #794
rayiner wrote: post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it’s an accurate representation of how many unions operated in the mid 20th century: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Hoffa

It happens now and has happened in recent times among all types of employers. The historical and union specific example wasn't necessary. Companies can strongly suggest who employees should vote for and solicit donations to specific candidates. As far as checking a record of actual votes, that's old days Tammany Hall kind of stuff. Not to say it wouldn't happen again if people could easily get away with it. https://w…

FWIW, the union example may be relevant because it's actually the origin of the anti-voter-interference laws in most states. Pennsylvania specifically is rooted in precisely the scenario up-thread described due to the heavy-industry history of the state.

It is good that these laws continue to protect the voter's right to autonomy against new threats to it.

Re: Former U.S. congressman, operative pleads guilty to election fraud charges

#810

Post by dukeofdoom »

tootie wrote: post #792
dukeofdoom wrote: post #644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need to prove voter fraud. If you show that ballots were counted that should not have, you should prevail. For example if under law there needs to be a signature match on the envelope, but such matches were not done, or done to such a low standard that they are useless. Then technically you should be able to have those ballots thrown out. Since a signature on the envelope is a big part of verifying whether…

It "seems"? There are observers and safeguards at every step. There were also 65 separate lawsuits filed around the country related to the 2020 presidential election where a judge was presented with the best evidence available that mistakes had happened (there were zero cases actually alleging fraud) and every case was tossed for failing to meet basic standards. https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/jan/08/joe-b…

I just don't think voting by mail can be done securely the way they did it.

Sorry still have doubts about the integrity of your election.

Somehow Biden out performed Obama with Black Americans in Detroit, who apparently came out and voted in record numbers for him. Yeah, I just don't believe it.

81 million votes. The most popular president ever. Yet the same guy couldn't get 10k views on some of his youtube videos. Yet had problems winning his own party. Somehow won the fewest counties ever, yet had the most votes ever. Delayed counting, strange ballot drop offs in the middle of the night, reversals in counts by the morning. I just don't believe it. I'm not an American. This is just my opinion. Election looked Soviet tiered.

You know, judges existed in Communist countries too. Good luck getting anywhere with any of them by claiming the elections were fake. They obviously were. The judicial system is a rubber stamp for the system, 99% of the time. The fact that none of those appeals went anywhere should be more of a tip off than anything.

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