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The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

teachforamerica.org

361–370 of 922 posts

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#361
Every time I read this stuff I don’t get it, it always feels like some form of missing the forest for the trees when you try and make determinations based off of percentages/ratios of groups rather than keeping it about the individual.

Uplift the individual first, trying to tweak things just to pump your numbers up seems like missing the point. I would rather treat education on a more personal outcome level than to treat it like a retail shop where I’m just trying to boost sales to meet some number/category goals.

(I think something similar can be said about this concept when it comes to politicians on TV recommending medical treatments or vaccines “for everyone” which I think is worth mentioning to help frame what I am getting at here but that’s another story.)

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#362
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my city, the worst schools tend to pay a good 20% better than the best ones, for teachers. They get lots of federal and state aid. People still usually prefer not to work at them, if they have options, because the work environment is terrible.

Why is the work environment terrible?

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Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure how you can generalize from prisons to schools. Because private prisons are bad, so private schools are bad?

All sorts of past failed experiments: - Private fire departments that used to show up at your house and demand payment in order to put the fire out, otherwise they'd just let your house burn to the ground. In Rome, they'd literally show up at your house, and buy it from you for pennies on the dollar before putting it out. - Private prisons fail the people in the way I've described. - Private healthcare fails American…

> Private fire departments

These are still definitely a thing. Though I expect they must be regulated so we don't end up in a Rome-style situation.

Edit: Found it. If you're in an area with something like Rural Metro, they put out the fire either way. If you don't have an annual membership with them, then they will invoice you. Nobody offering to buy your home for pennies on the dollar or standing around waiting for your credit card to clear before hosing down the flames.

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#364
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's true why do private prisons have such higher recidivism rates? This is simply false. > Mamun et al. (2020) report on studies that demonstrate that recidivism rates in private prisons are between 16.7% (Spivak & Sharp, 2008) and 22% (Duwe & Clark, 2013) higher when compared to public prisons. [1] When providing services, private companies do worse because their charter is not to provide services per se, it's…

The incentives are misaligned. Private prisons make more money if people go back to prison…!

This is true with all social services. The goal of a school is to educate. The incentive of a private school is to make money.

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#365
Somehow in last few years equity has been promoted and even equated with equality.

They are different concepts.

Equal Opportunity is a universal goal that as a society we continue to strive towards even though is impossible to fully achieve.

Equalized Outcomes (Equity) Is a dystopian nightmare.

The idea that all possible differentials between humans can and should have the same outcomes is ludicrous.

I work in education and will give you an example of this nonsense. In a well to do district in Chicago they found that Black students do not do as well in AP Calculus. After years of intervention the district achieved growth and had a record number of black student now enrolled in AP Calculus. However after five years and despite the increase of black students it was still found that white and asian students got higher scores on the AP exam.

The district solution was to cancel AP Calculus and now it is only offered as a third party online course not taught by the school district.

Why was the goal for all groups to have the same test scores? Just absolute rubbish.

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I figure there's little chance of finding a compromise if I can't even comprehend their viewpoint. I understand it just fine, but there’s a fundamental disagreement, in that I don’t support racism nor view people in terms of “racial tribes” — while proponents of equity do. That’s the frame they’re working from when they say denying an Asian student a place at Harvard in favor of a less qualified black applicant is…

They aren't saying that. They are recognizing that many forms of power in society are zero sum. There are plenty of ways to get a great education but only one Harvard and a limited amount of power to be distributed via an institution like Harvard. You and many like you believe that access to these institutions should be gatekeeped via a meritocracy. The supporters of this form of affirmative action recognize that in…

> underestimating how much marginalized communities distrust communities outside of their own. Black people do not trust that if Asian students go to Harvard and gain positions of power that those adults will protect their interests. They want their own in those positions.

I can't adopt this level of cynicism, or else I'd have to conclude that multi-ethnic societies are doomed to fall apart like Yugoslavia, or remain together using synthetic means like the Lebanese National Pact⁰, which specifies power sharing with agreements like

* The Prime Minister of the Republic always be a Sunni Muslim.

* The Speaker of the Parliament always be a Shia Muslim.

* The Deputy Speaker of the Parliament and the Deputy Prime Minister always be Greek Orthodox Christian.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Pact

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#367
post #51

There are so many topics that are hard to talk about nowadays without getting into politics but politics and structural inequality are at the core of this. For the benefit of non-US readers, know that how the US funds public education (K-12) is rather unique. It's done through property taxes essentially. Depending on your state and city your property taxes can vary a lot with the same value property. But what this me…

> But what this means is the wealthier localities have more tax revenue and thus better schools.

Poorer districts tend to have more industrial properties, so they are often better funded than wealthier districts. Especially since most state funding is distributed based on pupil units rather than pupils, and a low-SES student might count as something like 1.5 pupil units. (And a disabled student might count as 2.0 pupil units, etc.)

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#369
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> teach all students at the level that would have been taught only to gifted students before? You just can't do that, no matter how much you want it. Some teachers are better than others, they can't all be elite. The teachers union wouldn't let you sack all the mediocre teachers, and even if you somehow could fire them, where would all the new elite teachers to replace the mediocre ones come from? If you just sacked…

Who needs a better teacher? The gifted student or the remedial student? Gifted students (at least up to middle school) don't need special teachers (an 8th grade math teacher could teach gifted 6th graders), they just need challenging material and peers to keep them motivated and study with.

> Who needs a better teacher? The gifted student or the remedial student?

Both “gifted” (well prepared) and “remedial” (poorly prepared) students benefit dramatically from expert teaching. The well prepared students can continue to progress very quickly through challenging material. The poorly prepared students can get help finding and correcting their weaknesses and misconceptions, and practicing underdeveloped prerequisite skills.

The ideal is for everyone to get significant weekly 1:1 attention from a dedicated tutor/coach, who can help the student to deliberately practice. This significantly outperforms even the best classroom, and students with direct coaching improve probably 2–3 times faster than students without. Essentially all world-class performers in competitive events (sport, music, chess, math contests, ...) have significant amounts of 1:1 coaching.

Unfortunately as a society we don’t have the budget/manpower to provide hours per week of skilled tutoring for every student for every subject. So we try our best to balance available resources with students’/society’s needs.

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#370
post #11

Gifted programs are "unacceptably white". WTF does that mean? I had to pass essentially an IQ test to get placed into those classes. For me, it made a big difference in being engaged in schoolwork when every class consisted of reiterating content for days which I had mastered in minutes. Edit: I removed "I don't see what race has to do with it." I do see how race can affect this when the gatekeeper is a teacher with…

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