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Chesa Boudin Recalled by San Francisco Voters

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Re: Chesa Boudin Recalled by San Francisco Voters

#91

Post by choko »

rvieira wrote: post #85
georgia_peach wrote: post #10

Looks like having a DA raised by Weather Underground was too much, even for San Francisco: " Boudin fell in love with David Gilbert in the 1970s and gave birth to their son Chesa in 1980. When her son was 14 months old, she was arrested and subsequently incarcerated for murder and bank robbery. Her son was raised by former Weatherman leaders Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn. "

Children often grow up to hold opposite political views from their parents/guardians as a form of rebellion, so it's not that linear. A (ethical) social experiment can be made by looking at siblings later in life (e.g. the Hitchens brothers).

Political views often shift over the course of a lifetime. Those that rebel with opposite views from their parents in their 20s often shift further center in their middle age.

Re: Chesa Boudin Recalled by San Francisco Voters

#92

Post by choko »

turtledove wrote: post #83
rahimnathwani wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You have a very rose colored view of the world." Perhaps I do, and perhaps I don't. But I'd prefer we discuss the issue than my general view of the world. Let's take your scenario: someone is on the brink of starvation, and an opportunity to sell drugs (and not starve) falls in their lap. They take it (without any prior plan). This is definitely opportunistic. What happens if the above situation is repeated a second…

Look, if the answer is starving or selling drugs, I know what most folks are going to do. There might not be other opportunities available. Until we've eliminated the threat of homelessness and starvation for everyone living here (which we absolutely could do), there will always be people who had no other choice.

I would like statistics around how many drug dealers started selling because it was a choice between starvation and drug dealing. In my own anecdotal view, many people get involved in that lifestyle in their early 20s and do it because they enjoy the popularity, drugs, and tax free income. I'm sure there are some that have "no other choice" but I would prefer to see some actual honest figures.

Re: Chesa Boudin Recalled by San Francisco Voters

#93

Post by turtledove »

choko wrote: post #92
turtledove wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, if the answer is starving or selling drugs, I know what most folks are going to do. There might not be other opportunities available. Until we've eliminated the threat of homelessness and starvation for everyone living here (which we absolutely could do), there will always be people who had no other choice.

I would like statistics around how many drug dealers started selling because it was a choice between starvation and drug dealing. In my own anecdotal view, many people get involved in that lifestyle in their early 20s and do it because they enjoy the popularity, drugs, and tax free income. I'm sure there are some that have "no other choice" but I would prefer to see some actual honest figures.

https://drugpolicy.org/drugsellers

https://www.drugsandalcohol.ie/3914/1/2875-Understandingdrug...

Some data that suggests many get into it to feed their own addictions (which can be a "no other choice" scenario), meant more are collected by police as "dealers" even though they are just holding drugs for personal use. There's lots of research here, unsurprisingly.

Re: Chesa Boudin Recalled by San Francisco Voters

#94

Post by stillbourne »

ren_engineer wrote: post #31

>Crime overall has fallen since Mr. Boudin took office in January 2020 lol, that's pretty easy to do when you just stop prosecuting people. Same way graduation rates increase if you just stop failing people. Who cares about the actual purpose of institutions or whether goals are being achieved, just make sure the numbers are what we want https://twitter.com/DavidSacks/status/1533544746173571079

Yeah, what we need is more police state!

Re: Chesa Boudin Recalled by San Francisco Voters

#95

Post by rajup »

mrtksn wrote: post #71
ardit33 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DA parents were domestic terrorists jailed or murder (google it) So he was raised with parents in jail and became a defendant attorney. He took power he took revenge on the system and people by stopping prosecuting people in the name of social justice, and letting crime run rampant. Straight out of a Batman movie, just in real life there is no Batman to save SF. People had enough and are revolting against this lying…

Interesting. However your explanation does not look exactly impartial, what is the story from their side of things? It also looks stupid and petty to "take revenge" from the system when the system can expel you before you actually do any significant damage. Wouldn't be more logical to rise to the top and bring it down from there by playing the system?

> what is the story from their side of things?

That crime is going down (but see grand-grand-grand parent's point about less prosecutions).

That these policies actually help the homeless or reduces crime(initial evidence does not look good).

That voters voting for recall are brain-washed by misinformation from Republicans (?!. Ah yes the classic misinformation bogeyman misleading the poor gullible voters).

Re: Chesa Boudin Recalled by San Francisco Voters

#96

Post by itsdrewmiller »

ak217 wrote: post #64
jacobolus wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Judging from the chart, looks like about a 20% drop in felony prosecutions in 2020/2021 compared to a typical previous year, plus a larger drop in the number of misdemeanor prosecutions. (Which, note, are separate statistics from the number of reported crimes.) The once-in-a-century pandemic also had significant effects here, both on the DA office and courts, and on the level/types of crime in the city, making it har…

Yes. In our adversarial justice system, we rely on the DA to eagerly prosecute, the defense attorney or public defender to eagerly defend, the judge or jury to render the verdict, and the legislature to pass laws. Trying to compensate for dysfunction in one system by introducing dysfunction in another only makes the issues worse. Boudin was a public defender, and a pretty good one at that. He carried the public defen…

We expect eager prosecution in the courtroom, but DAs should exercise discretion about when to bring charges at all. I have not followed this story close enough to have an opinion about its application in San Francisco, but nationally I feel pretty confident we should be dialing the knob down not up.

Re: Chesa Boudin Recalled by San Francisco Voters

#97

Post by peanuty1 »

tempsy wrote: post #74
ren_engineer wrote: post #31

>Crime overall has fallen since Mr. Boudin took office in January 2020 lol, that's pretty easy to do when you just stop prosecuting people. Same way graduation rates increase if you just stop failing people. Who cares about the actual purpose of institutions or whether goals are being achieved, just make sure the numbers are what we want https://twitter.com/DavidSacks/status/1533544746173571079

I live in SF but don’t fully buy into the idea that any rise or fall in overall crime is on him. He entered office right before Covid hit and there’s a dozen different factors that could have played a role here. Regardless it’s clear property crime is bad and downtown is still a ghost town with every other store deserted and companies don’t want to host conferences here anymore. I don’t think anyone believes recallin…

You don't think being soft on crime has an effect on overall crime?

Re: Chesa Boudin Recalled by San Francisco Voters

#98

Post by georgia_peach »

drewbug01 wrote: post #90

I’m saddened that - as a society - we can’t seem to get away from the idea that the answer to crime is to “be tough on crime.” This recall seems to be an expression of our basic urge to punish, rather than any real desire to address the problems that lie at the root of most crime. We’ve tried the “tough on crime” approach for so many years, and all it’s really done is inflate the prison population (with mostly non-wh…

What is "the root of most crime"? What should society do with criminals instead?

Re: Chesa Boudin Recalled by San Francisco Voters

#99

Post by drewbug01 »

georgia_peach wrote: post #98
drewbug01 wrote: post #90

I’m saddened that - as a society - we can’t seem to get away from the idea that the answer to crime is to “be tough on crime.” This recall seems to be an expression of our basic urge to punish, rather than any real desire to address the problems that lie at the root of most crime. We’ve tried the “tough on crime” approach for so many years, and all it’s really done is inflate the prison population (with mostly non-wh…

What is "the root of most crime"? What should society do with criminals instead?

I suppose it's better to say "roots," plural. Nobody knows what lies at the roots of crime for _certain_, but there has been a lot of research into the topic. Several things seem to be strongly correlated with increased risk for criminal behavior, but we can't draw direct causality relationships quite yet. The Wikipedia article on it is informative, and viewpoint-neutral: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_correlations_of_cr...

One of the more interesting possible roots of criminal behavior is lead exposure as a child. It's not entirely clear, of course (socioeconomic status is a confounding factor that is hard to eliminate), but there seems to at least be some strong correlation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead–crime_hypothesis

My point isn't that we should be redirecting more resources to lead removal than to recalling a prosecutor (even though I _do_ think lead removal is a wise use of resources). My point is that deterrence and punishment is "cleaning up after the fact," rather than trying to address problems at their source.

The question "what should society do with criminals" implies a belief that criminality _must_ exist in a society. Perhaps to some degree, it is true. But it seems as though redirecting our efforts to prevent criminality in the first place by addressing the underlying root causes would ultimately be a far better use of our resources, and far more effective.

Re: Chesa Boudin Recalled by San Francisco Voters

#100

Post by georgia_peach »

drewbug01 wrote: post #99
georgia_peach wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is "the root of most crime"? What should society do with criminals instead?

I suppose it's better to say "roots," plural. Nobody knows what lies at the roots of crime for _certain_, but there has been a lot of research into the topic. Several things seem to be strongly correlated with increased risk for criminal behavior, but we can't draw direct causality relationships quite yet. The Wikipedia article on it is informative, and viewpoint-neutral: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_cor…

Yes, but what should society do with the criminals we already have? Even the most forgiving people can only stomach so much theft, vandalism, rape, murder, etc, before they snap.
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