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EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

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Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#921

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This always gets bought up, and it's always wrong. > I have no expectation, for example, that these same regulators will stay on top of this and revise it when USB-C stops being the preferred or best choice. They didn't write the law as "you must use USB-C" They wrote the law as "The industry experts need to pick A standard for charging, and all manufacturers should respect that choice" They are welcome to change it…

Where? The directive’s annex 1a very clearly states “USB Type-C receptacle, as described in the standard EN IEC 62680-1-3:2021.” https://ec.europa.eu/docsroom/documents/46755

The main directive (not the annex) states

> With respect to radio equipment capable of being recharged via means other than wired charging, the Commission is empowered to adopt delegated acts in accordance with Article 44 in order to amend Annex Ia in the light of technical progress, and to ensure the minimum common interoperability between radio equipment and their charging devices, by: (a) introducing, modifying, adding or removing categories or classes of radio equipment; (b) introducing, modifying, adding or removing technical specifications, including references and descriptions, in relation to charging interface(s) and charging communication protocol(s), for each category or class of radio equipment concerned.’;

So the commission can adopt new standards trough a much lighter executive process. It does not require new legislation to update the standard.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#922
post #629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU threatening manufacturers with regulation unless they settled on a format led to the end of different chargers for every phone model. It definitely had a direct impact on my life. Getting rid of different cables as well will make me very happy. "The EU" is not a singular entity. The tiny little parts of the EU doing most of the work on this combined with the tiny amount of time spent by larger parts of the EU…

The EU = the EU Commission. Aren't there much bigger issues impacting consumers such as right to repair, planned obsolescence, clean energy etc.? The law will not take effect until 2024, and in the meantime the industry has largely moved toward USB-C / wireless charging.

The EU Commission is still not a singular entity. The commissioners are not the ones doing the underlying work on these things, and so many things happens in parallel.

This was part of the EU Commission's 2020 work programme as one small sub-point among well over a hundred under one of the 43 main goals, as a secondary priority after a long list of climate and economic changes.

You're of course free to disagree with their prioritisation, but this has hardly been a major part of the Commissions work.

> The law will not take effect until 2024, and in the meantime the industry has largely moved toward USB-C / wireless charging.

Even with respect to mobile phones this excludes a certain notable holdout that accounts for a large proportion of the market, and which have kept resisting the EU push for over a decade, and a number of smaller holdouts still sticking with micro-USB.

But you'll note this extends way past phones, including to laptops where there's still a mess of different chargers.

With respect to wireless charging, it makes little difference as long as long as most people still have cables as backup (indeed I've yet to see someone use wireless charging; I'm sure a few more uses it at home, but I for one have zero devices capable of wireless charging; it will not reduce waste anytime soon)

I know for my own use, unnecessary cables and chargers still account for a large proportion of my electric waste because of the frequency of replacement, so for my part I welcome this.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#923
post #820
post #751

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument would sound less hollow if there weren’t two existing superior (from a user experience perspective) alternatives already on the market. Apple’s Lightning (thinner than USB-C) and MagSafe (safer than USB-C for charging laptops… so glad Apple is transitioning back to it for M2 Airs)

"thinner" is not a universally superior quality. It also means "more likely to get bent or broken" which implies "more likely to need replacing" which is one of the direct aims of this legislation.

Lightning is sturdier than USB-C too.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#924
post #751

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument would sound less hollow if there weren’t two existing superior (from a user experience perspective) alternatives already on the market. Apple’s Lightning (thinner than USB-C) and MagSafe (safer than USB-C for charging laptops… so glad Apple is transitioning back to it for M2 Airs)

Lightning cables don't last. They are a complete disaster. And that's not even considering how a little bit of dust can prevent your device from charging at all, and lightning ports are a complete dust magnet. But the best argument against "what about lightning?" is the fact that Apple themselves don't use it on their higher powered devices like macs, and use USB-C instead.

Anker lighting cables last pretty well. I agree the Apple ones don't.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#925

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just imagine if this had been done in the 90s, we’d be stuck on VGA cables for all video and wouldn’t have hi-def TV. Strict regulation causes ossification.

The EU did it before, forcing phone manufacturers to move to micro-usb https://www.wired.com/2009/06/europe-gets-universal-cellphon... From memory, Apple argued for an exception and got it approved for its products. So, having this kind of directive doesn't block special products, nor has any specific impact on the field evolving healthily. If anything, without this kind of regulation we'd probably still have 95 diff…

Apple didn't quite got an approved exception, the previous agreement on micro-USB was essentially a non-binding agreement between the industry and the EU. With the heavy implication that if it's not adhered to, then the EU will make it a regulation or directive.

Apple adhered by letter by making chargers USB and the phone not have USB, contrary to what the agreement wanted to achieve in spirit.

The EU approving this directive is simply the logical end conclusion of apple (and some small fish) not playing ball when asked to.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#926
post #485

A lot of people saying "USB-C cables aren't even compatible with each other!" (Nintendo switch etc.) Guess what: that's exactly the problem this regulation is intended to solve. Fake USB-C cables like Nintendo's that have the right shape but do not adhere to spec should gradually disappear along with lightning cables. The regulation actually says that cables can no longer be bundled with the devices themselves, so Ni…

I don't see why "What about innovation?" is taken seriously as an argument anyway. USB-C is more than adequate, we could coast with it for the next hundred years. Nobody is kept up at night by the lack of innovation in AC power plugs, the standards countries have settled on today, while not all equivalent, are all generally satisfactory in practice. Problem solved; stop fixing that which ain't broke and move on to ot…

Well, there are some serious drawbacks to USB-C. For one, it's not IP rated, which means you cannot use it to charge anything in a bathroom or a kitchen. That's a shame because there are a lot of appliances like electric toothbrushes that would also benefit from a single plug.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#927
post #640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy is not elections. Democracy is the freedom and right of involvement for the stakeholders (among other things) > Democracy is a very blunt tool. Very important when needed, but not good for fine tuning on any reasonable time scale. Very good for fine tuning at human time scales.

Let's say I invent a better connector tomorrow. Nobody other than me really knows if it's better or not. The only way for me to convince people is to get it out there in the market so people can try it. How does that work by voting or any other democratic activity? Others will be unconvinced that it's really better, for the same reason people are skeptical of startup ideas until they become mainstream. So nobody will…

If you're designing such a connector, I'm sure you'll have the car manufacturers on board immediately. After all, your connector is better. Not only a tiny bit better, it's much better.

The EU will obviously be happy to include your better connector, provided that old cars can use it too via an adapter and new cars can use old connectors via an adapter. Then they can without issue transition to the new connector without wasting everyone's time and money.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#928

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do new Macs and iPads have USB-C, then?

Because 1. Macs have always had standard ports, such as USB-A and FireWire, and Lightning basically is never used in a master configuration anyway, so it would make no sense to put it on a Mac 2. iPads have just a tiny share of the overall market of iDevices, and they only put USB-C on the most expensive models with the selling point that the port could now be used also in a master configuration, and not only as a sl…

1. Not to get too pedantic, I hope, but Macs have certainly not "always" had standard ports -- before USB, mice and keyboards used ADB! In fact, Apple were fairly early adopters of USB, and arguably helped make it a de facto standard for desktop peripherals.

Firewire was also a technical standard but never became widespread; if I recall, it was Apple's attempt to push against the converging industry standards with what they saw as a technically superior solution. But only Apple and Sony ever bet on Firewire in a big way.

If Lightning is never used in a master configuration, how come you can use it to plug headphone into an iPhone? It wouldn't have made "no sense" to put Lightning connectors on Macs (although I definitely agree it wouldn't have been wise and I'm glad they didn't).

MagSafe is another non-standard Mac thing -- which was replaced with USB-C and then came back again, very unusually for Apple.

So, they certainly haven't always have standard ports, and Apple have not always been consistent.

2. You don't need USB-C to have your device act as a host, whatever the marketing material might say. USB On-The-Go has been around for a long time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_On-The-Go The advantage of USB-C is that it gives you access to a wider market of third-party peripherals -- I'd say Apple saw the way the wind was blowing, and decided to sacrifice the control and fat margins you mentioned in favour of a better overall product.

Apple has only one goal in mind - their margins. Everything they do must be seen in function of that. It's clear Apple is going to remove every single port from the iPhone, they only have to find how.

I agree that they love a fat margin, and feel entitled to it, but I don't think that's quite the full story. Maybe I'm buying too much into the reality distortion field, but I think they genuinely believe they make better products due to their unique approach. That involves exercising strict control where they can (walled garden app store, proprietary connectors) and aggressively removing features that 10% of users rely on in order to give what they see as a better experience for the 90% (e.g. removing headphone jack); but sometimes also bending to market forces and embracing standards when they think it benefits users -- sometimes very early indeed. Think of the 2015 MacBook, which launched with just a single USB-C port for everything, when USB-C peripherals hadn't even become very widespread.

The test of all this will be whether iPhones continue using Lightning, or switch to USB-C. I'm very confident that they'll switch, in either the next revision or the one after.

It'll be a painful switch, but Apple is very good at powering through those (ADB to USB, 68K to PowerPC, removing floppy drive, removing CD drive, PowerPC to x86, 30-pin connector to Lightning, removing headphone jack, x86 to ARM). When they make up their mind to switch, they make it happen very quickly.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#929
post #701

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the XMPP standard? I use it everyday for messaging family and friends. WhatsApp is basically an unfederated XMPP provider.

I used XMPP around 2003 when it was still called Jabber. I can't say there's something major wrong with it (only XML verbosity comes to my head), it's just the idea of making it mandatory. By the way how come some EU officials use Zoom? [1] Where are those good open standards? [1]: https://meeteu.eu/events/

Funny you should mention Zoom, which just like Whatsapp is pretty much a half-baked proprietary XMPP implementation. Now if we had proper interop regulations mandating interoperability between commercial entities (no need to apply that to hobby/research projects), we could talk between all these networks.

Sure it would take a few months of serious dedication for these chat vendors to write specifications for the protocol spaghetti they came up with, but the benefits would be tremendous.

So why is "nobody" using XMPP protocol? The problem is not exactly with the specifications (although there's still a little margin for interpretation here and there, they keep evolving for the better) but rather with the implementations. Since a protocol is not tied to a single implementation, it requires additional resources to develop user-friendly clients. This fact is used by an argument by some people (see also: m0xie's The Ecosystem is moving) to justify centralizing all communications and protocol development. This argument was amply debunked by Daniel Gultsche (who maintains an Android XMPP client) and Drew Devault (who maintains an (unfederated-so-far) forge):

https://gultsch.de/objection.html

https://drewdevault.com/2018/08/08/Signal.html

There's also a lot to say about the Matrix/Element approach, which has some good and bad sides. I'm happy to elaborate if that's of interest to someone.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#930
post #612
post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact interoperability is what enables innovation, vs walled gardens.

Seems like history of computing goes against this

The whole history of sciences builds a case for interoperability, not against. See also the railway sizes problem (eg. in Australia), the electric/lighting socket standardization, doorlocks...

Were it not for standards and regulations you would have to buy different locks, lightbulbs, and charger adapters depending on the company which built your apartment. It's already annoying enough that these specifications change from one country to another, but it would be a complete nightmare if there were no interoperability regulations at all.

Also, more specifically about computing: the Internet being an open standard brought many advantages for innovation, compared to centralized networks such as MSN or AOL. As for hardware, i don't know about you but i'm pretty happy i can change my CPU/RAM/HDD with any socket-compatible product and i'm not tied to a single vendor... in fact i'm pretty angry when i find a machine where some parts are non-standard and cannot be easily replaced.

To be clear, i'm not saying there's no value in deviating from the standards for innovation. I'm just saying 99% of usecases are better addressed with standard solutions than with halfbaked proprietary "solutions".

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