EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices • Hacker News Board

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#911

Post by dwaite » Wed, Jun 08, 2022, 7:06 AM UTC

bloppe wrote: post #745

robonerd wrote: post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why "What about innovation?" is taken seriously as an argument anyway. USB-C is more than adequate, we could coast with it for the next hundred years. Nobody is kept up at night by the lack of innovation in AC power plugs, the standards countries have settled on today, while not all equivalent, are all generally satisfactory in practice. Problem solved; stop fixing that which ain't broke and move on to ot…

To be totally fair, it's not like a phone manufacturer is going to put 2 different ports on their device, so this is essentially regulating data as well as power. But also to be fair, USB-C cables that support thunderbolt 3 are a couple orders of magnitude faster (throughput) than Apple's lightning cables (40 Gbps vs ~480 Mbps), and if Apple could possibly support such speeds without releasing a new backwards-incompa…

> But also to be fair, USB-C cables that support thunderbolt 3 are a couple orders of magnitude faster (throughput) than Apple's lightning cables (40 Gbps vs ~480 Mbps)

however, extremely few devices ship capable of these data rates, and many USB-C cables ship only supporting 480 mbps data transfer.

> ... Apple could possibly support such speeds without releasing a new backwards-incompatible cable, they would have done so long ago.

Lightning supports USB 3 (superspeed 5gbps) speeds. The lightning USB 3 camera adapter supports it for compatible devices. They did indeed figure this out long ago. They didn't do it because most people don't use lightning cables for data or even understand they _could_ use lightning cables for data.

> If Apple ever wanted to support faster than 40 Gbps, they would have to do so in concert with the rest of the tech industry and release it as an open standard. I'd like to hear somebody try to argue this is a bad thing.

Apple contributed to both thunderbolt iterations and to USB4. They were first adopters of both, as well as shipping the first USB-C laptop. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#912

Post by qalmakka » Wed, Jun 08, 2022, 7:14 AM UTC

fy20 wrote: post #590

IvanK_net wrote: post #557

I wish EU standardizes a single electric socket for all EU countries. Germany, France, Switzerland and Italy - each has a different socket (although German and French are very similar to each other). More here: https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/EuropePlugsSockets.html

CEE 7/7 plugs will fit into all sockets in the EU, except Italy (where they can be bent slightly to fit), Malta and Ireland. The only issue is grounding, but things like phone chargers wouldn't be grounded anyway.

> where they can be bent slightly to fit

Oh god please don't. Lots of Italian plugs are 10A only, and you would not get grounding by shoving an E/F combo plug into an L socket. This comes without saying that it would probably wreck the shutters in the plug and the contacts inside.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#913

Post by AlchemistCamp » Wed, Jun 08, 2022, 7:26 AM UTC

bloppe wrote: post #485

A lot of people saying "USB-C cables aren't even compatible with each other!" (Nintendo switch etc.) Guess what: that's exactly the problem this regulation is intended to solve. Fake USB-C cables like Nintendo's that have the right shape but do not adhere to spec should gradually disappear along with lightning cables. The regulation actually says that cables can no longer be bundled with the devices themselves, so Ni…

> Other people saying "what about innovation!?" That's fine. Let's say the USB consortium releases USB-D with input from Apple, Google, and many other stakeholders. The EU can set another deadline for newly released devices to adhere to the new version instead of the old one. The transition will involve a period of time where older devices are still on C and newer ones on D, which is totally compatible with the regulation and is necessary with or without regulation.

If your idea of "innovation" is moving from one version of a spec to another version of the same spec requiring multiple trillion dollar companies and the EU setting a timeline, then your usage of the word is much narrower than mine.

Many advances that I consider truly innovative have often come from outsiders without the backing of the largest companies in the world and succeeded from the bottom up.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#914

Post by AlchemistCamp » Wed, Jun 08, 2022, 7:31 AM UTC

elif wrote: post #829

tephra wrote: post #747

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When they started this in 2009 they did want to make micro usb the thing everybody was forced to use. It's only by luck that it took enough time to not get stuck on that...

Contrarily, if they were able to pass that standard quickly, it would stand to reason that they could also pass a USB-C standard quickly. USB-C becoming standardized for phones will not slow the advancement of USB specs, and if the physical form factor becomes a constraint somehow, they will devise a better one and will standardize it likewise, even if consumer model phones can't ship with them from day 0. A great ex…

The Tesla spec still is superior. Europeans just don't get its benefits anymore. The CCS mandate was mostly protectionism and I strongly doubt it would have happened if Tesla were headquartered in Germany.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#915

Post by apexalpha » Wed, Jun 08, 2022, 7:33 AM UTC

samatman wrote: post #211

mrtksn wrote: post #123

By the way, that's also how Tesla and all other cars have the same electric plug in EU(not the USB mandate but the car plug standardisation mandate). Of course, the first thing that comes to mind is what happens if better solutions are found. Will EU block innovation? That question is addressed in the Q&A: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/QANDA_... In essence, they seem to believe that wired char…

> Will EU block innovation? It already has. Tesla's connector is nicer (you can call that subjective but it isn't) and the supercharging network in the US is deploying the clunky standard sort of connector as well. If EU legislation were universal, that would preclude any future where the superior connector is licensed and takes over from the crappy designed-by-committee alternative, because Tesla would be forced to…

>It already has. Tesla's connector is nicer (you can call that subjective but it isn't) and the supercharging network in the US is deploying the clunky standard sort of connector as well.

you know what's even nicer? Being able to charge your car at any charging station and not just the ones built by your manufacturer.

Imagine if you could only fill up your gas tank at specific gas stations that support your tank opening.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#916

Post by qalmakka » Wed, Jun 08, 2022, 7:39 AM UTC

iainmerrick wrote: post #537

qalmakka wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only practical reason for Lightning to survive is existing iPhone accessories Do you have any vague idea how much money Apple makes from Lightning accessories? Every single thing that wants to use Lightning has to pay an Apple tax, and go through an incredibly cumbersome and expensive certification process. Letting that slip away from Apple's control means they lose a bit of control on their walled garden. Mean…

Why do new Macs and iPads have USB-C, then?

Because

1. Macs have always had standard ports, such as USB-A and FireWire, and Lightning basically is never used in a master configuration anyway, so it would make no sense to put it on a Mac

2. iPads have just a tiny share of the overall market of iDevices, and they only put USB-C on the most expensive models with the selling point that the port could now be used also in a master configuration, and not only as a slave (and it's advertised as such on their website).

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#917

Post by qalmakka » Wed, Jun 08, 2022, 7:41 AM UTC

ratww wrote: post #502

qalmakka wrote: post #2

2024? There's still plenty of time for them to remove the port altogether and go with just MagSafe/Qi. Which they control, and they still can get fees from. Trust me when I say that Apple will NEVER submit to this legislation, they will find every sort of obscure or arcane tricks to comply with it without actually doing it. It would set a precedent that legislating can change Apple's behaviour, which they clearly do…

> MagSafe/Qi. Which they control, and they still can get fees from Apple doesn't control Qi. I charge my phone with a random $5 charger and it works quite alright.

Yep, but Apple controls MagSafe, which extends Qi. In a wireless iPhone, you would use whatever magical shenanigan Apple comes up with to seamlessly pair and communicate with MagSafe accessories, all while they get huge fees from accessory sales and certifications. It's a true and tested approach.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#918

Post by diffeomorphism » Wed, Jun 08, 2022, 7:50 AM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #348

DannyBee wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't designing anything, they mandate an overall requirement - "You must all use the same charge port". This is no different than any other customer - they are just representing the overall customers who would otherwise not have enough power or voice to achieve what they want. Also - if you don't want your industry regulated, maybe don't make a mess of it? Regulators rarely pay attention to things that are wor…

If this had gone through the first time, we would have all been stuck with micro usb. Customers can choose to buy Android phones.

They did and we haven't.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#919

Post by danielfoster » Wed, Jun 08, 2022, 7:50 AM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #629

danielfoster wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absolutely correct. I think the EU could have used its time and money focusing on more important problems. The new legislation is the type of feel-good lawmaking that sounds good on paper but has no real impact on society.

The EU threatening manufacturers with regulation unless they settled on a format led to the end of different chargers for every phone model. It definitely had a direct impact on my life. Getting rid of different cables as well will make me very happy. "The EU" is not a singular entity. The tiny little parts of the EU doing most of the work on this combined with the tiny amount of time spent by larger parts of the EU…

The EU = the EU Commission. Aren't there much bigger issues impacting consumers such as right to repair, planned obsolescence, clean energy etc.? The law will not take effect until 2024, and in the meantime the industry has largely moved toward USB-C / wireless charging.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#920

Post by guareber9 » Wed, Jun 08, 2022, 8:26 AM UTC

cmckn wrote: post #428

pkulak wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you own a tablet and a laptop, by chance? Maybe have 3 other family members, each with some combination of said three devices? That can quickly become a lot of household chargers if they are all different.

As others have pointed out, even if all these devices have a USB-C hole on them, the likelihood that you could actually use their charger with another device (especially of a different class) is at best a coin toss. The devices still have to ship with chargers, you still have to find the “right” charger, but now you can’t tell them apart? My main thought is just that the problem of different chargers is not one I thi…

What? I use the same USB-C cable and charger with my android phone, 2020 Macbook Pro, Ipad, SO's android phone of a different brand and way older MBP that's on its last legs.

That's the whole point of USB-C. I don't own a single device that I can't charge with the same 2 cables, to the point where the magnetic cable of the 2020 MBP is stored in its box.