EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices • Hacker News Board

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#611

Post by jackewiehose » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 7:05 PM UTC

kashyapc wrote: post #566

USB-C for laptop power ports seems to be incredibly flaky. :-( Let me share my ongoing horror story (excuse the verbosity): I've got a barely 3-months old Lenovo X1 Carbon (Gen-9) work laptop. A week ago I noticed the battery draining while the power cord is plugged in! Nothing worked: reset via the pinhole at the back, trying out different chargers, BIOS update, charging while the OS (Linux) is shut down, "to elimin…

> "this time let's replace both the motherboard and also the power adapter" [...]

> I want to think this is just plain bad luck, but the Lenovo support forums are full of similar problems, and two other colleagues independently confirmed the same issue

Oh no, I have to confirm this too. Had the same issue with my X1 Carbon Gen-9. They replaced the motherboard (and hopefully the power adapter). At least so far it's still working after a few months since repair.

> and I'm left with this bloody brick

Did you know you can charge (or at least power) the laptop via the other usb port, next to the power port? I was afraid to try that out by myself but their support asked me if I can do so and it worked.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#612

Post by bsnal » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 7:05 PM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #532

bloppe wrote: post #485

A lot of people saying "USB-C cables aren't even compatible with each other!" (Nintendo switch etc.) Guess what: that's exactly the problem this regulation is intended to solve. Fake USB-C cables like Nintendo's that have the right shape but do not adhere to spec should gradually disappear along with lightning cables. The regulation actually says that cables can no longer be bundled with the devices themselves, so Ni…

In fact interoperability is what enables innovation, vs walled gardens.

Seems like history of computing goes against this

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#613

Post by delecti » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 7:06 PM UTC

treis wrote: post #292

agloeregrets wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, companies building wholly proprietary infrastructure is just pure e-waste on the back of the citizens of those countries that ALSO limits innovation. Imagine a world where Ford cars use a different gas nozzle from a GM product in the US. The average person would have to pick and choose stations and if one were to go out of business, the lesser standard would encounter mass disposal and retrofit, al…

>The average person would have to pick and choose stations Stations would just have two nozzles on their pumps.

Well, three, because diesel pump nozzles are already a different standard.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#614

Post by bloppe » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 7:06 PM UTC

leadingthenet wrote: post #506

bloppe wrote: post #485

A lot of people saying "USB-C cables aren't even compatible with each other!" (Nintendo switch etc.) Guess what: that's exactly the problem this regulation is intended to solve. Fake USB-C cables like Nintendo's that have the right shape but do not adhere to spec should gradually disappear along with lightning cables. The regulation actually says that cables can no longer be bundled with the devices themselves, so Ni…

> Let's say the USB consortium releases USB-D with input from Apple, Google, and many other stakeholders [...] If you have to make such an argument, you've already lost. Innovation, particularly disruptive and / or breakthrough innovation, does not happen by committee, no matter how many times over history people tried deluding themselves into thinking that it does. So no, it's not fine.

> Innovation ... does not happen by committee.

If you have to make such an argument... Good luck with that. This one in particular has many existing counterexamples, including USB-C itself.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#615

Post by stevenalowe » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 7:06 PM UTC

“EU reaches deal” is misleading. “EU politicians made a deal over the objections of manufacturers” would be more accurate.

What happens when your awesome new product won’t work with mere usb-c? You get to lobby politicians for a decade to update the standard

This is a destructive decision that unfortunately will effectively bury evidence against it, ie all the things that won’t happen because of it

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#616

Post by D13Fd » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 7:08 PM UTC

Majestic121 wrote: post #187

D13Fd wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does stop innovation in things like lightning and MagSafe. And it doesn’t fix the multiple charger issue either, because so many manufacturers don’t adhere to the USB-C standard that any combination of charger + cable + device has an unreasonably non-zero chance of not working or even damaging the device. So in the end we still have to have multiple chargers, but now we can roll the dice on which one works with or…

It does not stop innovation like MagSafe : https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Adapter-Connector-Transfer-C... I'm not sure what you mean by 'unreasonably non-zero', but I've been sharing chargers between Macbook, XPS 13 and Thinkpad with no concern, + a charger from amazon. Some charger are less powerful than others, so charge is not always as quick, but in real life it does not matter : it's still charging fast enough…

I don't think an adapter is the kind of innovation HN users are looking for.

I've fried at least one USB-C device, a high-end wireless headset, seemingly by connecting it to a name-brand USB-C charger that had some kind of incompatibility with the headset.

Plus, even among Apple chargers, some USB-C chargers will support fast charging, and some won't, regardless of their rated wattage. Plus some will and will not support fast charging via a wireless charger (either a MagSafe wireless charger or an Apple Watch charger). There are a lot of charging incompatibilities in the current state of USB-C, even among devices from a single manufacturer.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#617

Post by moduspol » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 7:09 PM UTC

samatman wrote: post #211

mrtksn wrote: post #123

By the way, that's also how Tesla and all other cars have the same electric plug in EU(not the USB mandate but the car plug standardisation mandate). Of course, the first thing that comes to mind is what happens if better solutions are found. Will EU block innovation? That question is addressed in the Q&A: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/QANDA_... In essence, they seem to believe that wired char…

> Will EU block innovation? It already has. Tesla's connector is nicer (you can call that subjective but it isn't) and the supercharging network in the US is deploying the clunky standard sort of connector as well. If EU legislation were universal, that would preclude any future where the superior connector is licensed and takes over from the crappy designed-by-committee alternative, because Tesla would be forced to…

This is the case I try to make to friends and relatives (non-EV owners) who insist that a common plug is a prerequisite to EV ownership.

Standardizing against Tesla at any earlier point would have been a gift on a silver platter for legacy auto by slowing EV adoption, and it's Tesla's freedom to innovate that is why we're even having this discussion instead of theoretical questions about what EVs might be like in the future.

I usually tell them to let Tesla solve the remaining edge cases (semis, trailer hauling, and charge speeds comparable to ICE fill-ups) before we start regulating. Setting things in stone now would be like standardizing on DSL as the only last-mile broadband in 2004. We don't want to do that.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#618

Post by vvatermelone » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 7:09 PM UTC

thebean11 wrote: post #387

mmastrac wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the truth of the matter. Apple has been dragging their feet on switching away from lightning. Why? No idea. It's a much slower standard, and puts the wearing parts in the port instead of the cable. USB-C is designed by committee, sure, but the port itself is better than lightning in nearly every consumer metric there is.

Isn't USBC more fragile because of the middle piece that lives in the port? Lightning has always felt sturdier to me, though not enough to warrant carrying different types of cables..

The middle piece is thin and does look fragile, but you can't put any real side load on it. The outer wall of the connector takes that force before you can put any real force on the middle. Unless you're jamming a flathead screwdriver or something in it.

Beyond that, the springloaded contacts are on the cable end with type-c, with lightning it's inside the phone. I don't think it's a particularly common failure mode, but having less moving parts in the expensive bit is generally a good idea.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#619

Post by ericmay » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 7:10 PM UTC

geysersam wrote: post #607

ericmay wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EU is a densely populated place where having multiple charging networks of incomparable plugs will be horrible. In the short term, yes. In the long term however competition between these different standards will cause consolidation and overall technology improvement. The next step will be regulating wireless charging so that all devices have to use/do the same thing, rinse-wash-repeat. > Europeans don't trust that…

> being granted a monopoly Anyone can produce USB-C chargers. That's not a monopoly. This will effectively enable competition on the charging market, since the big players can't bind their products to their own proprietary chargers anymore. Have you ever felt the Apple/Microsoft charger to be lacking in some way? Breaking easily, too long cords, too short, wrong color, too expensive? Congratulations now you can make…

Yes but all you’re really doing is encouraging everyone to stay locked in to a USB-C market. This isn’t enabling competition in the charging market, it’s eliminating or hamstringing competing markets. You won’t create a new charging apparatus because you’re legally required to use USB-C.

"What if we created a charging cable that did X,Y,Z?"

"That would be cool but we have to use USB-C"

> Have you ever felt the Apple/Microsoft charger to be lacking in some way? Breaking easily, too long cords, too short, wrong color, too expensive?

No not really. In fact I’ve found most third-party products to be godawful. Good luck not buying something fraudulent on Amazon.com. But also, I’m not really sure what you are talking about. Companies sell charging equipment and cords now anyway.

Everything has trade-offs. I’m skeptical of the necessity of this regulation, especially given that the only holdout that anyone cares about is Apple and they’ve been adopting USB-C in all of their products over time. One benefit though will be manufacturers won’t include charging cables with new devices anymore. So that will further reduce waste. Wouldn’t be surprised to see lobbying behind the scenes from companies such as Apple to implement regulations like this so they can save money. I kind of like this as an investor because now you can save money by not including a cable (or maybe you still do and it’s just some cheap one for now) and then you go and up sell wireless chargers instead.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#620

Post by Ekaros » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 7:11 PM UTC

leadingthenet wrote: post #506

bloppe wrote: post #485

A lot of people saying "USB-C cables aren't even compatible with each other!" (Nintendo switch etc.) Guess what: that's exactly the problem this regulation is intended to solve. Fake USB-C cables like Nintendo's that have the right shape but do not adhere to spec should gradually disappear along with lightning cables. The regulation actually says that cables can no longer be bundled with the devices themselves, so Ni…

> Let's say the USB consortium releases USB-D with input from Apple, Google, and many other stakeholders [...] If you have to make such an argument, you've already lost. Innovation, particularly disruptive and / or breakthrough innovation, does not happen by committee, no matter how many times over history people tried deluding themselves into thinking that it does. So no, it's not fine.

Ah what lovely place our technological lives would be without standards, that are done by committees... No standardised wireless technologies like Bluetooth, WiFi, 1G, 2G, 3G, 4G, 5G... Each and every provider and technology manufacturer running their own incompatible networks... Hey, maybe throw away IP and TCP too... Let each site run on their own proprietary protocol...