Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#291

Post by dqpb » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 5:15 PM UTC

colordrops wrote: post #275

dqpb wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US and Germany are allies. In fact, I believe “German” is the largest ancestry group in the US. Besides which, it’s extremely common for entities to invest in mutually beneficial agreements with other entities.

This idea that policy should be set based on a grossly oversimplified wrapping up of a huge surface area of agreements into the term "ally" and vague notions of ethnic similarity needs to die. It gives the ruling class a mechanism to excuse war crimes of our supposed "allies" and drop bombs on supposed "enemies" for perceived minor infractions.

I agree, and this is not an argument I would normally make.

But I think it’s the quality of response the parent deserved, given their ridiculously hyperbolic framing of “a foreign occupying force”.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#292

Post by qweqwerwerwerwr » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 5:16 PM UTC

dathinab wrote: post #119

dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No but it is the monopoly supplier of the single most important device for fabs. If ASML (and all their knowledge) disappeared off the face of the earth today progress in semiconductors would probably be set back a decade or two. The fact they are a single company in one country that the global industry depends on for progress in semis should be of concern.

But it doesn't only have factories in the Netherlands and is as much controlled by a single "entity" as Intel is (e.g. the US doesn't control Intel). Most relevant as far as I can tell this situation was intentionally created that way to be able to better keep China off the high end chip market.

No post body was provided.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#293

Post by adventured » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 5:16 PM UTC

alaricus wrote: post #113

dgellow wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t get your point. What you describes sounds exactly like the goal of such a subsidy. With new Intel factories in Europe that means more demand for ASML and other European companies, given that they already collaborate. With the addition that you can now train Europeans and develop the industry locally.

My point is that as a taxpayer in Germany, I don't want to subsize an American company. Better to invest in local companies like Infineon or Bosch.

Americans feel your pain, given the subsidies German automakers have received to build plants in our country over the decades.

Mercedes got $260m in Alabama in the early 1990s, BMW got $150m in South Carolina in the early 1990s, Volkswagen got $570m in the late 2000s in Tennessee. That's close to $1.6 billion inflation adjusted from just three examples of it.

The US economy is six times the size of Germany's economy, so those are massive subsidies in relation.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#294

Post by andruby » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 5:16 PM UTC

wazoox wrote: post #270

ISL wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is very important for national stability. A highly-interconnected global economy is arguably better at securing international stability.

That was the main argument for global trade already in 1914. France was Germany's most important commercial partner, and vice-versa. All German rifles had stocks made from French walnut wood! All French locomotives had German-made tubing! This stupid mantra was repeated ad nauseam after 1991, too, with silly op-eds from Friedman and friends about how two countries with McDonald joints in both can't be at war and simi…

How many more wars would there have been without this interconnectedness?

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#295

Post by justapassenger » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 5:18 PM UTC

mike_hearn wrote: post #166

Sakos wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ideally, the EU would be trying to build its own semiconductor industry. I don't see that kind of foresight in any of our political leaders, much less mine in Germany. So the next best thing is to ensure that the current company we're reliant on builds local production.

Note that the act of giving subsidies to foreign companies automatically kills any case for investing in a truly local chip company, because you can't easily compete against that.

Competing with Intel is out of the question for any local chip company.

But semiconductors is much much much more than high end CPUs. There’s totally a huge opportunity for local chip companies to grow. And having company like Intel may help, as people who work there will get a lot of know how that they can take to smaller local companies to help them grow.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#296

Post by lazide » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 5:20 PM UTC

andruby wrote: post #294

wazoox wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was the main argument for global trade already in 1914. France was Germany's most important commercial partner, and vice-versa. All German rifles had stocks made from French walnut wood! All French locomotives had German-made tubing! This stupid mantra was repeated ad nauseam after 1991, too, with silly op-eds from Friedman and friends about how two countries with McDonald joints in both can't be at war and simi…

How many more wars would there have been without this interconnectedness?

When we find a solid way to A/B test the universe, we might know. Otherwise, good luck!

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#297

Post by madrox » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 5:22 PM UTC

FooBarWidget wrote: post #279

wazoox wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was the main argument for global trade already in 1914. France was Germany's most important commercial partner, and vice-versa. All German rifles had stocks made from French walnut wood! All French locomotives had German-made tubing! This stupid mantra was repeated ad nauseam after 1991, too, with silly op-eds from Friedman and friends about how two countries with McDonald joints in both can't be at war and simi…

A connected world is not a guaranteed sufficient condition for peace. But that does not mean it's not a necessary condition for peace. One could argue that without economic interconnectivity, Europe could have fought WW1 much earlier, or would have had wars much more often.

While I ultimately believe you're correct (along with open borders and travel) I wish there were more rigorous proofs that this were the case.

I think about the line in West Wing: "Free trade is essential for human rights...the end of that sentence is 'we hope because nothing else has worked.' ...Chinese political prisoners are going to be sewing soccer balls with their teeth whether we sell them cheeseburgers or not, so let's sell them cheeseburgers."

While war and human rights are different, they're also pretty correlated.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#298

Post by jupp0r » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 5:22 PM UTC

It's really common for chip companies to shop around and start a bidding war to see where they can get the highest subsidies.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#299

Post by formerly_proven » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 5:24 PM UTC

kken wrote: post #261

riedel wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany used to have a semiconductor industry like Intermetall (acquired by micronas acquired by TDK). The problem is that IMHO German automotive industry is not willing to pay a cent more than necessary. They do only care about short term profit. They triggered the chip crisis in Germany by stopping there orders and then restocking. I am not sure if any government can fix this.

>Germany used to have a semiconductor industry like Intermetall (acquired by micronas acquired by TDK). The problem is that IMHO German automotive industry is not willing to pay a cent more than necessary. How about the three fabs that Bosch has in Germany? Or Infineon, X-Fab, Globalfoundries, TI, Prema, Elmos (now Siltech), Vishay, Nexperia?

Silicon on hacker news pretty much always means latest and smallest logic node, because most commenters aren’t aware of semiconductor applications beyond computer parts and assume everything is about 7 5 3 nm because that’s what gets in the news.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#300

Post by paganel » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 5:28 PM UTC

Stupid move by Germany, giving even more money to the US corporations. In fact, the EU as a whole is presently doing just that, those Next Generation EU funds will, for a great part, find their place in the coffers of the big US tech companies.

It goes like this: EU gives billions of dollars to EU national governments but with many strings attached -> an important part of those strings is related to digitisation -> the EU national governments redirect the money they received from Brussels to digitisation implementations -> US tech companies get even more wealthy, as there's almost no local European competitor that can compete when it comes to the cloud, hardware and even software (just think of all the EU funds that will go almost directly to paying Oracle licenses).

Similar thing happens with re-directing EU money into China's coffers, as most of the EV batteries are now produced in China and there's a big push at the EU level for us, EU, citizens, to purchase EVs.