Live data from Hacker News

Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

electronicsweekly.com

201–210 of 593 posts

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#201
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you mind explaining why you think this is the case?

They are dependent on and subservient to the US and its geopolitical interests. We see this right now with Germany self-sabotaging it's own economy and industrial power by cutting off cheap Russian energy at the direction of US policy interests (Nord Stream 2 was agreed upon for years between Russia and Germany but thwarted at every turn, sanctioned etc by US).

It was also hated by other EU countries:

>President of the European Council Donald Tusk said that Nord Stream 2 is not in the EU's interests.[19] Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi and Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán have questioned the different treatment of Nord Stream 2 and South Stream projects.[19][20] Some claim that the project violates the long-term declared strategy of the EU to diversify its gas supplies.[21] A letter, signed by the leaders of nine EU countries, was sent to the EC in March 2016, warning that the Nord Stream 2 project contradicts the European energy policy requirements that suppliers to the EU should not control the energy transmission assets, and that access to the energy infrastructure must be secured for non-consortium companies.[22][23]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream_2

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#202
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Subsidizing an American company is not necessary for Germany's security. In fact, it undermines it.

Ideally, the EU would be trying to build its own semiconductor industry. I don't see that kind of foresight in any of our political leaders, much less mine in Germany. So the next best thing is to ensure that the current company we're reliant on builds local production.

They are on it [1], but it takes time.

[1] https://on5g.es/en/ec-sets-targets-for-european-digital-sove...

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#203
post #2

Investing in local chip fabs is long overdue. These are incredibly important for geopolitical stability and should be distributed world-wide. We've centralized too many fabs in too few places in the search for low cost.

ASML is in the Netherlands though. Edit: Yes ASML is obviously not a chip fab but they supply the machines that actually fabricate the chips.

Manufacturing anything large is an international affair these days.

https://www.asml.com/en/news/stories/2020/inside-high-tech-m...

"ASML has five manufacturing locations worldwide. Our lithography systems are assembled in cleanrooms in Veldhoven, the Netherlands, while some critical subsystems are made in different factories in San Diego, California, and Wilton, Connecticut, as well as other modules and systems in Linkou and Tainan, Taiwan."

And you can assume those factories depend on sub-assemblies from lower tier factories which are made in even more places.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope they treat the workers well. Maybe their chips will end up in my next laptop. (I think I can keep repairing this one for a while, sorry I'm a bad capitalist or whatever.)

> Maybe their chips will end up in my next laptop. Unless your laptop is also a car that's probably unlikely ;) (AFAIK the new Bosch fab will mainly produce chips for the car industry)

Well I never thought the Transformers would be big with Germans

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#205
post #95
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes Taiwan inherently better than somewhere else ? If it's just for historical and/or economical reason I don't see why Europe or the US couldn't build their own chemical plants. You have to start somewhere, it took us decades to delocalise everything to Asia, it'll take decades to build these industries locally.

You have just asked why we can't "just move manufacturing out of China:" There are no individual chemical plants, there are huge chemical complexes owned by many companies with own well guarded know hows. There may be 2-4 suppliers in a row producing some intermediary product used in making of only 1 output. Just to make the semiconductor grade hyperpure propanol you need ultrapure catalysts, ultrapure sulphuric acid…

> You need decades just to replicate this. Now you need to move 100+ of such material chains.

Better get started right away then.

"The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. The next best time is today."

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#206
Wow.

For those old (or well-read enough in history) enough to have a sense of just how dominant Germany once was, world-wide, in science, technology, chemistry, optics, etc. etc....this news feels kinda like a tombstone of German identity.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#207
post #171
post #2

Investing in local chip fabs is long overdue. These are incredibly important for geopolitical stability and should be distributed world-wide. We've centralized too many fabs in too few places in the search for low cost.

It is very important for national stability. A highly-interconnected global economy is arguably better at securing international stability.

No post body was provided.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#208
post #189
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ideally, the EU would be trying to build its own semiconductor industry. I don't see that kind of foresight in any of our political leaders, much less mine in Germany. So the next best thing is to ensure that the current company we're reliant on builds local production.

Germany used to have a semiconductor industry like Intermetall (acquired by micronas acquired by TDK). The problem is that IMHO German automotive industry is not willing to pay a cent more than necessary. They do only care about short term profit. They triggered the chip crisis in Germany by stopping there orders and then restocking. I am not sure if any government can fix this.

Infineon doesn't count?

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is why fabs were centralized. I think this is because when you start to decrease node size, the fab costs go up astronomically so to keep the cost in check you need economies of scale and with the current manufacturing techniques you can achieve this by centralizing manufacturing.

Seems to me that most software is horribly inefficient anyway. If push came to shove we might just consider making better software?

Software engineers are expensive too.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#210
post #9
post #2

Investing in local chip fabs is long overdue. These are incredibly important for geopolitical stability and should be distributed world-wide. We've centralized too many fabs in too few places in the search for low cost.

Why is the local fab specifically important? They're still going to fly the wafers to Malaysia or wherever for packaging, right? And the tools and chemicals will all be made elsewhere, won't they? It's not as simple as having a steady supply of apples from your local orchard.

Assembly services are all over the place. Here's a large one in Escondido, CA which is commonly used. https://www.qptechnologies.com/about-us/company-info-bios/
Post reply on HN