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EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

engadget.com

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Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#381

Post by chmod600 »

mrtksn wrote: post #233
samatman wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Will EU block innovation? It already has. Tesla's connector is nicer (you can call that subjective but it isn't) and the supercharging network in the US is deploying the clunky standard sort of connector as well. If EU legislation were universal, that would preclude any future where the superior connector is licensed and takes over from the crappy designed-by-committee alternative, because Tesla would be forced to…

EU is a densely populated place where having multiple charging networks of incomparable plugs will be horrible. When you are not happy with decisions the governments make, it usually means that you should be involved in the process of making the decisions. Europeans don't trust that the industry will always come up with the best solutions for the user, Americans usually don't trust the government doing something well…

"When you are not happy with decisions the governments make, it usually means that you should be involved in the process of making the decisions."

Democracy is a very blunt tool. Very important when needed, but not good for fine tuning on any reasonable timescale.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#382

Post by yladiz »

scarface74 wrote: post #351
pixl97 wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate to be snarky on HN, but are we from the same planet? In the vast majority of devices you accept what the manufacture gives you or you are out of luck, especially when everything these days is protected by some kind of intellectual property. This excuse is old and tired and tends to ignore that large manufactures purposefully make the customer experience worse for higher profits.

Yes and their plenty of phone manufactures that give you a choice of buying phones with USB-C.

And plenty don’t.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#383

Post by ericmay »

amluto wrote: post #283
ericmay wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EU is a densely populated place where having multiple charging networks of incomparable plugs will be horrible. In the short term, yes. In the long term however competition between these different standards will cause consolidation and overall technology improvement. The next step will be regulating wireless charging so that all devices have to use/do the same thing, rinse-wash-repeat. > Europeans don't trust that…

> In the long term however competition between these different standards will cause consolidation and overall technology improvement. If you think that’s a superior solution, then the regulation should actually support it: require that all EV charging connectors have a free published specification, disallow patents on them, and require that interoperability be permitted without cost or other penalty. (e.g. anyone sho…

I'm not opposed to this and personally think it's all up for discussion/debate and it should be discussed and debated. I'm excited to see what develops in this space.

One nitpick would be:

> e.g. anyone should be able to implement both ends of the Tesla supercharging protocol such that Tesla’s chargers would charge a competing car at the same prices that they charge Tesla’s; similarly, a competing chargers should be able to charge a Tesla.

I think this sounds good, but one of the details here is ensuring that other manufacturers are able to actually build the products correctly so a supercharger doesn't light a car on fire or something due to faulty equipment. Who is at fault? How is it prevented? What are the legal agreements? Etc.

On the pricing side though I'd have to strongly disagree. Tesla (or whoever) builds the infrastructure so they should be able to charge what they want. It's about the plug and interoperability of that standard, not infringing on the business model which I think goes too far. If they charge too much money, people won't use them and competitors will continue to emerge (I see new charging stations in Meijer parking lots being put next to Tesla infrastructure). There's no reason in my view to mandate pricing here and I think it would set back EV adoption to do so.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#384

Post by maccard »

samiru wrote: post #331
maccard wrote: post #7

The problem with USB-C is that you can't just pick up a device cable and power brick and expect them to work together. As an example, my Apple 96W USB-C charger doesn't charge my nintendo switch. The cable that came with my phone doesn't charge said fully Mac when used with the 96w charger. There is no indication of incompatibility between these devices until you realise they don't work. This is going back to the dc…

> The problem with USB-C is that you can't just pick up a device cable and power brick and expect them to work together. We clearly need more regulation.

Indeed, but this isn't the regulation we need unfortunately

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#385

Post by cesarb »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #365
rootusrootus wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I doubt we will need to make a connector that is physically incompatible anytime soon Didn't USB-C already do that to itself? I suppose that depends on how narrow the definition of "physically incompatible" is. But IIRC you can't buy a perfect do-everything USB-C cable today, because some USB-C use cases are flat out incompatible with others.

You can – AFAIK a real Thunderbolt 4 cable will carry anything that can be carried over a USB-C port.

At the cost of being shorter and stiffer; a cable which can only use USB 2.0 and 3A charging can be longer and thinner. And there are also buggy devices (like the first hardware revision of the Raspberry Pi 4) which incorrectly short the two configuration pins together and can only work with less capable cables. But other than that, I agree: a passive Thunderbolt 4 cable can be considered a "perfect do-everything USB-C cable".

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#386

Post by marssaxman »

mrtksn wrote: post #337
marssaxman wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When you are not happy with decisions the governments make, it usually means that you should be involved in the process of making the decisions. Most of us are not billionaires.

You don't need to be. "We can't do anything about anything because the system is run by the billionaires and unless you are one, you have no power" narrative is not only false but also harmful.

Please pardon my inadvertent US-centrism! If you live in a country with a functioning democracy, of course it would make sense to participate. Here in the US, average citizens have little to no influence on policy:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli...

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#387

Post by thebean11 »

mmastrac wrote: post #315
bestouff wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well they asked everyone to agree on a standard 10 years ago, but that didn't happen (just because of Apple). So now they forcefully decided.

This is the truth of the matter. Apple has been dragging their feet on switching away from lightning. Why? No idea. It's a much slower standard, and puts the wearing parts in the port instead of the cable. USB-C is designed by committee, sure, but the port itself is better than lightning in nearly every consumer metric there is.

Isn't USBC more fragile because of the middle piece that lives in the port? Lightning has always felt sturdier to me, though not enough to warrant carrying different types of cables..

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#388

Post by Someone »

mattmaroon wrote: post #342
mrtksn wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's this thing called Brussels effect where manufacturers pick to default to EU requirements instead of having different supply chains unless they absolutely have to. EU don't like the idea of manufacturers locking down their users through different standards. EU is a densely populated place with limited natural resources and free space, therefore cables piling up or 10 different types of charging stations are pr…

I don't really get this trash argument even though I hear it over and over. I throw away a higher volume of stuff in one or two average days than all the wall warts and phone cables I've ever owned probably add up to. I've been on smart phones since Blackberry, and I don't think all of the chargers and cables I've used over the two decades combined add up to a single trash can full. Interoperability sure.

> I throw away a higher volume of stuff in one or two average days than all the wall warts and phone cables I've ever owned probably add up to.

I would think ‘mass’ is a better metric to use than ‘volume’. Also, it’s not only the waste, but also the work needed to make it, and I would guess that’s a lot harder for electric chargers than for, say, the plastic bags that take up the bulk of the volume of trash.

Also, “Others are worse” isn’t a strong argument. Some of the large contributors to trash may not be completely unavoidable (example: plastic packaging). Because of that, it’s not possible to significantly reduce the amount of waste by making a few cuts on the largest contributors of trash. You have to do it by making lots of small cuts. This is one of them, and also a relatively easy gain.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#389

Post by _ea1k »

throwaway92394 wrote: post #310
seu wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Will EU block innovation? Innovation is overrated. And standardising is not blocking. What we need more urgently than innovation is to stop creating so much waste, extracting so much stuff from the earth, and in general reduce consumption. Standardisation accomplishes at least some of that.

> Innovation is overrated. And standardising is not blocking. Hard disagree? Both lightning and USB C were massive improvements in durability compared to Micro USB - I'd argue lightning is still better in that regard, because there's no thin piece inside the phone that can break (did phone repair, and 99% of the time a "broken" iphone port was just stuck lint). USB C is not universally better then then Micro, namely…

I really like what USB-C has done for peripherals and non-iphone devices, but I agree with you.

I'd be fine with a new USB-D that fixed all these issues. USB-C is just mostly better than the other alternatives for Android and charging laptops. Its far from perfect.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#390

Post by _ea1k »

wfhordie wrote: post #288
mrtksn wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's this thing called Brussels effect where manufacturers pick to default to EU requirements instead of having different supply chains unless they absolutely have to. EU don't like the idea of manufacturers locking down their users through different standards. EU is a densely populated place with limited natural resources and free space, therefore cables piling up or 10 different types of charging stations are pr…

> cannot be made interoperable without a substantial modifications is a no-no. This sentence seems to imply that one cannot charge their non-Tesla car with the Tesla charging network without substantial modifications. What do you mean by substantial modification? It is already possible for non-Tesla cars, in the United States, to charge at Tesla destination chargers with an adapter: https://qccharge.com/collections/j…

True, and tbh, the adapters don't have to be particularly clunky. The CCS1 -> Tesla connector adapter is generally pretty elegant. Its not as nice as the Tesla connector itself, of course.

Sadly, the US standard (CCS1) was heavily influenced by a desire for backward compatibility with J1772. Its not a great standard in itself.

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