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Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

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Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#91

Post by cute_boi »

mantas wrote: post #66
hunglee2 wrote: post #32

German investment again going to foreign companies, the very opposite of strategic sovereignty. The Trump era should be enough evidence that there are no friends in geo-politics, just temporary alliances of convenience.

Germany and strategic sovereignty… Looking at gas pipes, they have an alternative understanding of sovereignty.

Well, if you have any alternative than gas pipes please let us know. Germany is already pushing for green techs. And, gas coming from another part of the continent is always more expensive than neighboring countries? Yes, they shouldn't have dismantled Nuclear Power. But after an incident in Japan, many people were nuclear phobic so can't blame politicians alone?

That being said, I do agree that paying 5.5bn of taxpayers money to foreign tech is silly. Such money can be easily used in investing local companies which will provide more employement and ROI to Germany.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#92

Post by shankr »

vegai_ wrote: post #74
alaricus wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The origin of the company is irrelevant if they respect basic norms. This is not correct. American govenment has a habit of using American companies to push foreign policy objectives.

That hardly matters as American and EU foreign policy are almost completely aligned.

No post body was provided.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#93

Post by DeathArrow »

stnikolauswagne wrote: post #78
DeathArrow wrote: post #48

Why can't everyone get a help from the German government to start a business? I want to grow cucumbers, so it would be nice for Germany to pay to help me start a cucumber growing business.

I mean germany/the EU does pay subsidies to (cucumber)-farmers [0], there is literally billions each year flowing into keeping farmers somewhat afloat. [0] https://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/2013-11/agrarreform-landwirts...

Maybe I am an US citizen and I want to start a business in Germany.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#95

Post by baybal2 »

lm28469 wrote: post #59
baybal2 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This will not do much with Taiwan being a single source for semiconductor manufacturing supplies. Much of critical blockers for chemicals, consumables, materials will still be in Taiwan just because the semi industry is that huge there. All 300mm fabs working outside of Taiwan are just few shipments of consumables away from stalling all the time. When Russia attacks Ukraine, the 3rd world is fucked. When China attack…

What makes Taiwan inherently better than somewhere else ? If it's just for historical and/or economical reason I don't see why Europe or the US couldn't build their own chemical plants. You have to start somewhere, it took us decades to delocalise everything to Asia, it'll take decades to build these industries locally.

You have just asked why we can't "just move manufacturing out of China:"

There are no individual chemical plants, there are huge chemical complexes owned by many companies with own well guarded know hows. There may be 2-4 suppliers in a row producing some intermediary product used in making of only 1 output.

Just to make the semiconductor grade hyperpure propanol you need ultrapure catalysts, ultrapure sulphuric acid, ultrapure water, and ultrapure input hydrocarbon stock. Ah, forgot, you also needs an ultrapure tare manufacturer, because bottles you ship ultrapure materials are single use.

You need decades just to replicate this. Now you need to move 100+ of such material chains.

> If it's just for historical and/or economical reason

Simple answer, yes! Taiwan has quietly swallowed near an entirety of the wider precision manufacturing industry.

It been consistently swallowing very capital intensive industries producing exportable niche products one after another simply because nobody else been taking such hard, and risky ventures. Yes, their profitability is not high, but their "moat" is gigantic.

Taiwan been an industrial titan for 20+ years, and the US only finds out about it now.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#96

Post by ho_schi »

Everyone is paying for chip fabs. This isn't new? Especially Intel and TSMC are in a position where they can require money for a fab. Together with Infineon, NXP or ASML we could built up own production lines but these will also cost a lot of money. Because China is doing the same. Europe just missed to do the same, strategic investment into the economy. Free trade...China never believed in and we shouldn't neither.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#97

Post by hunglee2 »

Pigalowda wrote: post #67
hunglee2 wrote: post #32

German investment again going to foreign companies, the very opposite of strategic sovereignty. The Trump era should be enough evidence that there are no friends in geo-politics, just temporary alliances of convenience.

That was only 4 years, hardly an era.

we are living the Trumpian timeline, nonetheless

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#98

Post by lotsofpulp »

amelius wrote: post #81
mensetmanusman wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s all interconnected, Intel fabs are worthless without ASML, you can think of Intel as almost like a general contractor at this point pulling capabilities from everywhere.

ASML should demand 30% of profits, like Apple does with its App Store.

They do.

https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/ASML/asml-holding/...

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#99

Post by DocTomoe »

april_22 wrote: post #77
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #10

Once again EU taxpayer money bankrolling US tech dominance. When will we ever learn to build up our domestic tech industry? And before the chip hipsters crawl all over my back to prove we ackshually have a powerful domestic semi industry, please name me another EU company, other than ASML (a company 90% of people here never heard of before the chip shortage), that has the same margins, dominance and ability to shape…

there was a strong chip industry in saxony decades ago, but they became way too expensive when china came. they are slowly starting to built back there, but progress is slow. Bosch and Infinion have the fabs there

You are refering to Robotron, which mostly is known for their Z80s knockoffs (which often were less buggy than the originals.) Given that they did not create chips of their new design, I would not describe them as having been 'strong', though.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#100

Post by hunglee2 »

mantas wrote: post #66
hunglee2 wrote: post #32

German investment again going to foreign companies, the very opposite of strategic sovereignty. The Trump era should be enough evidence that there are no friends in geo-politics, just temporary alliances of convenience.

Germany and strategic sovereignty… Looking at gas pipes, they have an alternative understanding of sovereignty.

an unstated and unrequited aspiration for sure.
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