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EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

engadget.com

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Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#201

Post by andrewla »

horsawlarway wrote: post #147
ubermonkey wrote: post #130

It's just really not clear to me that regulators need to be mandating product design. I have no expectation, for example, that these same regulators will stay on top of this and revise it when USB-C stops being the preferred or best choice. Twenty years ago, we really DID have a snarl of competing and proprietary phone ports. It was a mess -- Blackberry chargers didn't work with Palm; most WinMo devices had their own…

This always gets bought up, and it's always wrong. > I have no expectation, for example, that these same regulators will stay on top of this and revise it when USB-C stops being the preferred or best choice. They didn't write the law as "you must use USB-C" They wrote the law as "The industry experts need to pick A standard for charging, and all manufacturers should respect that choice" They are welcome to change it…

This is not correct so far as I can tell -- the amendment to directive 2014/53/EU [1] says

> Hand-held mobile phones, tablets, digital cameras, headphones, headsets, handheld videogame consoles and portable speakers, in so far as they are capable of being recharged via wired charging, shall:

> (a) be equipped with the USB Type-C receptacle, as described in the standard EN IEC 62680-1-3:2021 ‘Universal serial bus interfaces for data and power - Part 1-3: Common components - USB Type-C TM Cable and Connector Specification’, which should remain accessible and operational at all times;

To switch to a new charger type would require legislative action, not just industry experts changing their mind. That said, I actually strongly prefer this approach to allowing an industry self-regulating group to make these decision.

[1] https://ec.europa.eu/docsroom/documents/46755/attachments/4/...

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#202

Post by peeters »

horsawlarway wrote: post #147
ubermonkey wrote: post #130

It's just really not clear to me that regulators need to be mandating product design. I have no expectation, for example, that these same regulators will stay on top of this and revise it when USB-C stops being the preferred or best choice. Twenty years ago, we really DID have a snarl of competing and proprietary phone ports. It was a mess -- Blackberry chargers didn't work with Palm; most WinMo devices had their own…

This always gets bought up, and it's always wrong. > I have no expectation, for example, that these same regulators will stay on top of this and revise it when USB-C stops being the preferred or best choice. They didn't write the law as "you must use USB-C" They wrote the law as "The industry experts need to pick A standard for charging, and all manufacturers should respect that choice" They are welcome to change it…

> They are welcome to change it going forward, they just have to agree and consolidate.

That's not how innovation works. What motivation would they have to change it if all your competitors will change it step? This only hurts consumers.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#203

Post by cdash »

est31 wrote: post #156
Quanttek wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article already hints at it, but lawmakers are not completely dense and allow for relatively easy amendments by the Commission. From the legislation [1]: > "With respect to radio equipment capable of being recharged via wired charging, the Commission is empowered to adopt delegated acts in accordance with Article 44 to amend Annex Ia in the light of technical progress, and to ensure the minimum common interoperab…

That's good but usually a new standard is phased in for one or two models to gain experience with it and then increasing numbers of phones use it. If you require all phones to use it from day one, you lose that. You'd at least need an "experimentation" mechanism where the commission allows manufacturers to build different devices that represent a few percent of their sales.

Experimentation can still happen by having 2 ports. Might not be practical for phones since they are so small these days but it being on phones wouldn't be necessary for testing a new universal standard. It could be tested on other larger devices.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#204

Post by easton »

mojuba wrote: post #139
happy_path wrote: post #132

Can't they give a free adapter when selling an iPhone?

Exactly my thought. That would save many kilotonnes of lightning chargers and cables from being thrown away (and replaced with USB-C ones for no good reason really).

Well, there's at least one good reason: I can use my MacBook charger to charge my iPhone without having to carry two cables around.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#205

Post by darklion »

Majromax wrote: post #164
thinkindie wrote: post #134

What I don't understand from Apple - they have already made the move to USB-C with laptops (ditching the Magsafe - that was way more practical than the USB-C connector), why resisting this much for the iPhone/iPad/etc? I understand that they have additional revenue streams by licensing lighting to accessories manufactures, but still...

> I understand that they have additional revenue streams by licensing lighting to accessories manufactures, but still... Bingo. It's not the charging, it's the port itself. But the fee and lock-in also apply to data-using accessories. Wired iPhone headphones aren't compatible with other phones, for example, and if you've purchased (e.g.) an expensive FLIR phone-mounted thermal camera, then you're less likely to jump…

I always enjoy seeing the “Apple doesn’t want to give up the money” takes.

How much money does Apple make from their licensing? Point me to even one estimate that shows me the money that Apple makes on the Lightning port licensing, and what fraction of its overall profit, loss, or even revenue, that the Lightning licensing comprises.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#206

Post by rootusrootus »

Majromax wrote: post #164
thinkindie wrote: post #134

What I don't understand from Apple - they have already made the move to USB-C with laptops (ditching the Magsafe - that was way more practical than the USB-C connector), why resisting this much for the iPhone/iPad/etc? I understand that they have additional revenue streams by licensing lighting to accessories manufactures, but still...

> I understand that they have additional revenue streams by licensing lighting to accessories manufactures, but still... Bingo. It's not the charging, it's the port itself. But the fee and lock-in also apply to data-using accessories. Wired iPhone headphones aren't compatible with other phones, for example, and if you've purchased (e.g.) an expensive FLIR phone-mounted thermal camera, then you're less likely to jump…

I don't think it's fees. Relative to what they earn directly from customers, fees are a pittance. I figure they have exactly two reasons, both plausible, to be reluctant to switch the phone over to USB-C.

The first is size -- lightning is thinner than USB. But other phones have USB-C, so this is probably not that big a hassle.

The second is their customers. For every customer that wants USB-C on their new phone, a dozen more want all their existing accessories and cables to continue to work when they upgrade their phone.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#207

Post by peoplefromibiza »

mrtksn wrote: post #123

By the way, that's also how Tesla and all other cars have the same electric plug in EU(not the USB mandate but the car plug standardisation mandate). Of course, the first thing that comes to mind is what happens if better solutions are found. Will EU block innovation? That question is addressed in the Q&A: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/QANDA_... In essence, they seem to believe that wired char…

> "No funny cables, why don't you try wireless charging of your liking if USB-C doesn't cut it for you?".

it boils down to "as long as the USB-C is provided"

anyway electric plugs have been a standard for decades, better options to supply energy have come out, the plugs have stayed the same.

I don't understand the FOMO.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#208

Post by mikkergp »

dingleberry420 wrote: post #184
ubermonkey wrote: post #130

It's just really not clear to me that regulators need to be mandating product design. I have no expectation, for example, that these same regulators will stay on top of this and revise it when USB-C stops being the preferred or best choice. Twenty years ago, we really DID have a snarl of competing and proprietary phone ports. It was a mess -- Blackberry chargers didn't work with Palm; most WinMo devices had their own…

> What problem is the EU solving here? Everything works together, except Apple stuff.

What does work together mean in this case, it’s not like we’re talking Ethernet where these devices are communicating to each other. Like I can’t use an android charger? Lightning to usb-c cables are pretty much standard. It seems like in the short term anyways this increases e-waste as all my old Lightning chargers become deprecated.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#209

Post by mrtksn »

jeroenhd wrote: post #190
mrtksn wrote: post #123

By the way, that's also how Tesla and all other cars have the same electric plug in EU(not the USB mandate but the car plug standardisation mandate). Of course, the first thing that comes to mind is what happens if better solutions are found. Will EU block innovation? That question is addressed in the Q&A: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/QANDA_... In essence, they seem to believe that wired char…

In the USA all modern electric cars also use the normal standard, except for Tesla. There were a few early offshoots and Tesla had good reason to come up with their own connector initially (no other plug could transfer that much power!) but these days everything has been pretty much consolidated. For charging your car at Tesla chargers that haven't been upgraded to the standard yet there are adaptors available from T…

There's this thing called Brussels effect where manufacturers pick to default to EU requirements instead of having different supply chains unless they absolutely have to.

EU don't like the idea of manufacturers locking down their users through different standards. EU is a densely populated place with limited natural resources and free space, therefore cables piling up or 10 different types of charging stations are problems that EU cannot afford. EU trash being shipped to poorer countries is already a serious problem for example.

Good to hear that in the US only Tesla was the outlier and the industry acted responsibly but unless regulated you can't guarantee that it will be like that or stay like that.

Businesses love to lock down their users, Tesla chargers are a major selling point for Tesla and from EU perspective having multiple charging networks that cannot be made interoperable without a substantial modifications is a no-no.

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