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Please, don't build another Large Hadron Collider

bigthink.com

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Re: Please, don't build another Large Hadron Collider

#61

Post by virtue3 »

black_puppydog wrote: post #27
popinman322 wrote: post #24

The LHC's development produced a number of new technologies (e.g. radiation resistant microcontrollers, and gas electron multipliers). Could the next generation produce more, valuable tech? I also don't have the expertise to tell whether the article is being overly reductive with the project's goals: are there other questions (besides new particles) that can only be answered with a larger collider? The summary of the…

I see the same argument (secondary innovations) being made for war-time/military research. But I don't buy it there, and I don't buy it here. Investing the same money in something that has a known and positive primary effect will produce the same amount of secondary benefits. So if you can think of something more fruitful to do with these 100B, do that; the secondary benefits will keep coming anyhow.

silicon valley is a DIRECT result of the secondary effect of radar systems.

https://web.stanford.edu/group/ree/archives/archive08/usa/pr...

shrug. It's always hard to guess?

Re: Please, don't build another Large Hadron Collider

#62

Post by datadata »

This article brings to mind the plot point [SPOILER ALERT] in "The Three-Body Problem" where the antagonistic and technologically superior aliens halt the progress of our entire civilization merely with nanotechnology that impedes science at our particle accelerators, thus preventing breakthroughs in physics.

Re: Please, don't build another Large Hadron Collider

#63

Post by ainiriand »

Well, the US spends more than 700B per year in military budget alone, I see this thing as much more important and necessary.

In any case it will be built by a conglomerate of countries and the budget is not huge when splitting the bill.

Heck I would even like to see a couple of these built per year instead of more planes and warships.

Edit: Typo.

Re: Please, don't build another Large Hadron Collider

#64

Post by brazzy »

throw457 wrote: post #3

Ah... the yearly bigthink article that we should stop funding other experiments and put everything into fusion.

That is the exact opposite of what the article argues.

It says to stop putting everything (or rather, a ridiculous amount of money) into high energy particle physics and start funding other experiments.

Re: Please, don't build another Large Hadron Collider

#65

Post by trinovantes »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #54
trinovantes wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that you don't know what the secondary benefits are until you find them so you should keep every avenue open A short story about the discovery of microscopes from https://lettersofnote.com/2012/08/06/why-explore-space/ Had the rich noble simply invested his money in doctors instead of the person with a hobby of playing with glass, they might have instead discovered more uses for leeches

Spending $100B on one big project is very much the opposite of keeping every avenue open.

And skipping on a big project/infrastructure because it costs a lot is also not keeping every avenue open

Re: Please, don't build another Large Hadron Collider

#66

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

bjornsing wrote: post #23

I fully agree. I’d even go one step further: don’t spend that 100 billion on physics at all. That’s taxpayer money that actually can be spent on feeding the hungry. That’s the humane thing to do, and I bet a much better investment in science too, since those hungry will have a chance to become scientists. PS. I have a masters in engineering physics and several friends who are physicists. I’m also a science nerd. But…

The best way to feed the hungry is to implement systemic change which improves education, distributes productivity more evenly, invests in primary research across a broad range of domains, eliminates debt slavery, and - most of all for this three - keeps qualified physicists in research and out of fintech.

You need to throw politics at poverty and homelessness, not just cash.

Not incidentally, lowering the barriers to physics education and changing the incentives towards risky imagination and away from calculated academic careerism would also make breakthroughs in physics more likely.

Re: Please, don't build another Large Hadron Collider

#67

Post by musha68k »

moonchrome wrote: post #26
mehrdada wrote: post #11

Cannot disagree more. "Making a car is expensive, so let's not do that to explore 1000 miles out. Let's just have 1000 people walk one mile and explore." Simply ridiculous comparison. But sure, let's find a way to build/experiment LHC++ less expensively. What's concerning to me, however, is the attitude towards curiosity that this article exhibits. They should rename their domain to smallthink.com.

Your analogy is fundamentally flawed. More realistically : we can only build one car in the entire world, where a tiny minority of people can even understand the potential benefit, and anything they see will be completely useless for everyone else in day to day life because we need a civilisation level effort to even detect the implications of their theory. If their theory had some real world implications - you would…

Europe is so rich it can easily afford all of the great project ideas outlined in the article in addition to a new LHC (and then some).

Let's think big indeed, the author unfortunately has a very reductive vision for the future.

Instead how about:

A renaissance of funding - BIG SCIENCE - education, jobs.

That was basically the promise of the EU - peace through wealth - let's create some more.

Let's bring back the excitement and scientific wonder of the 1960s. This could be a unilateral vision across the democratic spectrum (everyone wants wealth).

And yes, global warming actually should dictate no less. Let's do it now.

Oh and let's just fix poverty while we are at it.

Again, Europe has the means and could do all of that by itself.

Re: Please, don't build another Large Hadron Collider

#70

Post by brazzy »

throw457 wrote: post #50
sliken wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fusion does remind me of the space program. Surprising new solutions in a wide range of sciences. Easy to produce superconducting ribbons being one of the big successes so far. Said ribbons have lead to significant improvements in electro magnets, improving both field strength and decreasing the magnet sizes. Said magnets are useful for a wide variety of applications (outside of fusion), like improved MRI machines. T…

If we solve physics we solve everything if we solve fusion we have solved fusion.

> If we solve physics we solve everything

A particle collider does not, in fact, "solve physics" in any meaningful way, especially not in terms of practical applicability.

> if we solve fusion we have solved fusion.

The comment you are replying to has explained in some detail why this is not true.

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