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Women Who Ran Genghis Khan’s Empire

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61–70 of 130 posts

Re: Women Who Ran Genghis Khan’s Empire

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mongol conquests were roughly comparable to the European conquest of the Americas. Both toppled great empires and may have killed ~10% of world population in a few generations. And both were more noteworthy due to their large-scale success than their brutality. While both waves of conquest were brutal even by contemporary standards, they were not extraordinary brutal. Being an absolute monster is a part of the job de…

The Europeans didn't topple any empire in the Americas. They collapsed by themselves due to the sickness brought over by the Europeans before they made contact. It would have been logistically impossible to topple an empire overseas.

This sounds the same to me as saying: "The gunshot didn't kill him. The infection did."

Re: Women Who Ran Genghis Khan’s Empire

#62

IMO we should not look at Genghis Kahn's Empire fondly. After listening to Hardcore History's Wrath of the Khans, I think they have been the most evil group humanity has produced so far. Time seems to heal all wounds but Genghis Khan sure seemed to have made a lot of wounds.

Who looks at the Mongol empire fondly?

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Re: Women Who Ran Genghis Khan’s Empire

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mongol conquests were roughly comparable to the European conquest of the Americas. Both toppled great empires and may have killed ~10% of world population in a few generations. And both were more noteworthy due to their large-scale success than their brutality. While both waves of conquest were brutal even by contemporary standards, they were not extraordinary brutal. Being an absolute monster is a part of the job de…

The Europeans didn't topple any empire in the Americas. They collapsed by themselves due to the sickness brought over by the Europeans before they made contact. It would have been logistically impossible to topple an empire overseas.

[deleted]

Re: Women Who Ran Genghis Khan’s Empire

#64

IMO we should not look at Genghis Kahn's Empire fondly. After listening to Hardcore History's Wrath of the Khans, I think they have been the most evil group humanity has produced so far. Time seems to heal all wounds but Genghis Khan sure seemed to have made a lot of wounds.

Who looks at the Mongol empire fondly?

Netflix’s Marco Polo did - quite fondly.

Re: Women Who Ran Genghis Khan’s Empire

#65
post #56

I see they are trying to push a narrative here, but they picked a weak example. Wu Zetian started in a harem of some Chinese emperor, but climbed to the top, captured the throne and ruled for 15 years officially (and who knows how many years before that unofficially). She wasn't shy of killing her own newborn for a timely political move, and obviously wasn't constrained by morals in her climbing after that. And Gengh…

Hundreds of years later... the US, unconstrained by morals, was doing the same, overthrowing the Kingdom of Hawaii to control more land to grow grass (sugarcane).

Re: Women Who Ran Genghis Khan’s Empire

#66

This part sounds very similar to the traditional role of women, and it is quite dishonest to frame it as "Running Genghis Khan’s Empire": > Chinggis Khan’s senior wife, Börte, is responsible for a camp. She’s responsible for their home, the yurt or ger that they live in. She’s responsible for the kids. If merchants come through, she’s going to talk to them about economic activity. She is going to oversee or perform t…

Suddenly everyone is an expert on the logistics of running an empire! Is it so hard to believe that women were in positions of real power there, especially when men were overwhelmingly occupied with warfare? If you read the article you find she later ran the whole shop. It's not dishonest at all, quite the opposite, as the scholar in the article notes, it is dishonest to _downplay_ the role women had in running and e…

> Suddenly everyone is an expert on the logistics of running an empire!

That's a strawman.

> If you read the article you find she later ran the whole shop.

May I suggest that before looking down on others like this, it is wise to make sure you've been careful when reading the thing?

The article contains no such claim. Most likely, you are mixing up Töregene and Börte.

Re: Women Who Ran Genghis Khan’s Empire

#67

IMO we should not look at Genghis Kahn's Empire fondly. After listening to Hardcore History's Wrath of the Khans, I think they have been the most evil group humanity has produced so far. Time seems to heal all wounds but Genghis Khan sure seemed to have made a lot of wounds.

The misery of the Mongols' wrath is made apparent by the decline of Iran and China, hitherto on par with if not ahead of the West, but some 800 years after the Empire we see the regions least affected (South India, Vietnam, Japan, Oman) still performing as regional standouts on a troubled continent. You could throw out Myanmar and Yemen as counterexamples but they've both seen nasty recent wars.

Re: Women Who Ran Genghis Khan’s Empire

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

some mongol people to this day. People tend to ignore their ancestor's warcrimes. Even if they admit they were evil they can't bring themselves to hate them. This applies to most old empires, many people can't bring themselves to hate the entire empire despite their barbarity.

People should absolutely cultivate a balanced and accurate understanding of the past. I don't think anyone should cultivate hate.

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Re: Women Who Ran Genghis Khan’s Empire

#69
post #56

I see they are trying to push a narrative here, but they picked a weak example. Wu Zetian started in a harem of some Chinese emperor, but climbed to the top, captured the throne and ruled for 15 years officially (and who knows how many years before that unofficially). She wasn't shy of killing her own newborn for a timely political move, and obviously wasn't constrained by morals in her climbing after that. And Gengh…

Ahh, the modern take on war and nations, the desire for moral superiority and the silly game of pretending there are rules in war.

As hard as it maybe to wrap one's head around this, historically, war was a way to obtain resources, or rather resolve conflicts over resources. Genghis wanted a resource for his horses, he resolved it. If your city was wiped out by him, it was your fault for being weak. You should not expect peace between nations or compassion. Nations are built on stolen land, their borders drawn by blood. We live in a world where nuclear powers maintain balance and modern technology has resolved many of the world 's resource scarcity issues. Our countries are ruled by law, not people. People allowed themslves to be ruled by the most cruel and ruthless in the past because that meant obtaining the most resources for them, even if done on a wh im to satisfy their rulers. People sit back and judge empires from the romans to the british and criticize their morals. It is utterly absurd. I mean, even these days the US invades the middle east and Russia its neighbors for resources. And the terrible thing about democracy is that people think the whole world runs on some system of rules where people's wills and lives matter at a global scale. It sounds nice but that isn't reality. It can be that way in a country but between countries, when you have food shortage your government will not hesitate to wipe out cities and commit genocide on your behalf. My point is that such criticism should be based on reality not on how things should be in an ideal world. The primary directive of any government is not just to secure its borders but the nation itself, whatever that stands for. Be it the elected ruler's will or the monarch's whim.

Re: Women Who Ran Genghis Khan’s Empire

#70

This part sounds very similar to the traditional role of women, and it is quite dishonest to frame it as "Running Genghis Khan’s Empire": > Chinggis Khan’s senior wife, Börte, is responsible for a camp. She’s responsible for their home, the yurt or ger that they live in. She’s responsible for the kids. If merchants come through, she’s going to talk to them about economic activity. She is going to oversee or perform t…

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