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Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

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Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#141

Post by _delirium »

propater wrote: post #122
burgerbrain wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether or not it compares to standard trolling, it still is trolling. You're not going to fix it by complaining.

We can fix it to some extent through public condemnation, raised awareness and demonstration of support to the victims of this kind of behaviour.

I think unfortunately, in this particular case, you can't fix what seems to be the single biggest problem--- one person who is already widely condemned, banned from forums/IRC when people see him, but nonetheless persists, and keeps reappearing in new guises.

I can imagine fixing the more common problems, like pervasive stupid sexist comments everywhere, and inappropriate content in conference presentations, but stamping out every single rare-but-extant crazy stalker seems unlikely. A number of high-profile bloggers, Usenet posters, and forum admins of both genders have attracted unhinged people of that sort, and discussion about what to do about the problem dates back at least 20 years.

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#142

Post by biot »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #94
pnathan wrote: post #59

I read a private blog of a lady in the games industry, and the level of ordure and harassment she gets is simply unbelievable. It's well beyond anything in the 'people are jerks, suck it up' level. I can well believe Skud got sick of it and is doing other things with her life. I'm going to come right out and say it - if you, or someone you know - has a penchant for writing these sorts of harassing emails, it needs to…

Foul language and harassment in the games industry? I'm shocked. Perhaps it's just due to white male privilege that I've never been called a "gaaaayyyy nig faggz" while playing online games? [edit: sarcasm. Like anyone who's ever delivered a headshot, I've been told "fu homo chink".]

The games industry does not refer to anybody who plays games but refers to the development of games; in the same way the automobile industry does not refer to anybody who drives a car.

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#143

Post by davidhansen »

dreww wrote: post #139
davidhansen wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the general reason for this attitude goes back to the old phrase "sticks and stones can break my bones but words will never harm me". When someone initiates physical force against you, it is an action being done to you, the consequences of which you cannot avoid due to the laws of physics. We take actual threats of physical violence seriously because of this. When someone says mean things, the above attitude pr…

the daily life of most women is filled with navigating a hostile space that may break out into sexual violence at any time. having an obsessed troll on the internet following you around, or threatening you before you show up to a conference, goes way beyond what you're talking about here. your whole point comes from a place of the privilege of relative security. imagine that is not the case.

I'm not defending the mentality, just describing its origination. Please note my last few sentences.

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#144

Post by sp332 »

mootothemax wrote: post #80

Skimming over the comments here, once again I find myself distressed at the large number of men in the tech community who just don't get it . Whether it's sexist jokes, inappropriate language or illustrations, or plain old stereotypes, it sometimes feels like the tech community's firmly stuck in the 70s. The worst thing is that none of this is difficult to solve, it just involves growing up, frankly.

It's because they don't intend to be offensive. For example: in the US, holding up two fingers is cool. In the UK, it's offensive. So one group of people can have a set of behaviors that another group finds offensive, but the first group has no idea why the second group is offended because they don't intend offense.

I know there are a lot of actually misogynistic people in tech. I'm only talking about the guys who "don't get it."

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#145

Post by ubercore »

mootothemax wrote: post #80

Skimming over the comments here, once again I find myself distressed at the large number of men in the tech community who just don't get it . Whether it's sexist jokes, inappropriate language or illustrations, or plain old stereotypes, it sometimes feels like the tech community's firmly stuck in the 70s. The worst thing is that none of this is difficult to solve, it just involves growing up, frankly.

Have there been any articles/studies about what gender relations are like in other equally "divided" industries? I'm wondering if it's related to a certain type of person naturally attracted to software/tech, or if it can develop naturally in any industry split pretty starkly along gender lines.

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#146

Post by sp332 »

sixtofour wrote: post #67
DiabloD3 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MikeeUSA frequently states dumb shit like "oh, women deserve to be raped since the day they first bleed because this is what God created women for" and other shit. He does it purely for the sake of trolling, and people periodically bite the trollbait. Is this illegal? No. Should he be beaten with in an inch of his life? Yes. Is that going to happen outside of a prison? Probably not, no one is quite sure of his exact…

Who decides whether he gets the beating, and who administers it? Sounds like a step backward in civilization to me. Should we ignore this kind of problem? No. Should we go full vigilante on it? No.

Anybody can decide to attack you, whenever they want. We have police, courts, etc to settle disagreements, but if they are not interested in getting involved in your case, you two are on your own.

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#147

Post by airlocksoftware »

mootothemax wrote: post #80

Skimming over the comments here, once again I find myself distressed at the large number of men in the tech community who just don't get it . Whether it's sexist jokes, inappropriate language or illustrations, or plain old stereotypes, it sometimes feels like the tech community's firmly stuck in the 70s. The worst thing is that none of this is difficult to solve, it just involves growing up, frankly.

I can barely believe the things I'm reading on this page. Lots of comments similar to "It's just trolling, get over it." And "she's just reinforcing negative stereotypes of women by not being strong enough to handle the internet." And "men deal with negative comments all the time and don't whine about it."

These are the exact attitudes that are the problem! Why can they not see this?

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#148

Post by mtoddh »

peterwwillis wrote: post #89

A couple of points if I may: 1. If you speak at conferences, especially about a non-technical subject like "women in FOSS projects" (which is more likely to get sexists riled up), you are going to get unwanted attention. Pretty much every speaker who speaks on a controversial, or non-technical, or just media-glamorized topic is going to get harassed - if not hacked. It happens all the time to men and i'm sure it happ…

If the guy isn't posing a physical threat, suck it up and ignore it

Judging by a lot of the comments on here, this seems to be what really makes people here upset. That she didn't just 'suck it up.' That she's complaining. A cardinal sin for men, since we get much more pressure to show that we can 'suck it up', are tough enough not to let things like this get to us, etc.

The thing is, women are probably going to feel more threatened by this sort of harassment, than a man in a similar situation. It's almost as if there's a history of violence towards women, initiated by men, that makes women react differently to threatening behavior from men.

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#149

Post by gatlin »

Another day, another HN thread about misogyny and sexism in STEM, and another sampling of "hackers" who can't seem to agree 100% that sexism, harassment, and stereotyping are categorically wrong.

It's not even the overt sexism that is the problem. It's the educated troglodytes making up bullshit like "civilization has always been like this" and "she invited harassment with such bold feminism" and "this just proves women can't handle pressure."

That half the community seems to have reached adult maturity is good; that half has not is so incredibly depressing and tiresome

Re: Female FOSS dev quits tech industry due to harassment

#150

Post by sp332 »

peterwwillis wrote: post #133
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the only reason there weren't more women in tech was because they didn't want to be there, what you say about fixing tech would be true, but it's not. Women are significantly discriminated against, from the day they start engineering courses. I don't believe you are sympathetic at all. More importantly, you've shown no empathy. I'm assuming she started speaking at conferences because she enjoyed it. Some jackass t…

....I don't know how to fix the problem. Will empathizing more fix it? If so, i'll empathize like crazy. But I seriously doubt it will create change. Instead I try to point out what I see as some of the contributing factors to the problem in this particular case. I'm sorry I can't fix sexism, and i'm sorry i'm not being humbling and emotive enough to express that I find sexism wrong. But I don't agree that I am illus…

But it will. Empathy is an effective antidote to harassment.
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